Hand Troll license change?

[mswkickdrum]

I tried to find it by searching "hand troll" on here but was told my search was too broad.
Thus, I can't find the exact post that mentioned this.
Someone had posted that the licensing folks were considering allowing a
hand troll license to use two hydraulic gurdy lines. (one each side?)
That would make a hand toll permit basically 50% percent of a power troll.
Anyway, please tell, is this really being considered?
If it was you who posted that, where did you come to hear about it?
Is there anyone on here who could give some more detailed info
on this and it's likelihood?

Thanks so much,
MSW

[mswkickdrum]

Seriously, 100 views and NO ONE knows anything
about this that they are willing to post?!? Is this
part of the "unwelcoming to newcomers" thing
Salty spoke of?

MSW

[cletelord]

Everybody is very busy at this time.(Notice no other posts).........Patience Grasshopper !!! xx

[Salty]

I read your post a couple of days ago but have been kind of busy and have not heard a thing about it.
There was a related subject dealing with the use of power reels sportfishing and a proposal to the Board of Fisheries by SPC which really muddied that water to the point I am worried we might lose our ability to use our hydraulic gurdies as downriggers when we are sport fishing off our commercial trollers.

There also is a regulation which allows the guys commercial winter fishing with sport poles to use downriggers.

I hope this helps.

[Ocean Gold]

Yes, Board of Fish proposal number 328 submitted by a charter operator with a hand troll permit would allow the holder of a transferable hand troll permit to be allowed to use two power gurdies. There are many charter operators using electric reels and jigging machines and this will just be one more tool to make them more effective in destroying the resource we have left. If you havent seen yet, the 1 million lb overage in charter halibut for 08 has resulted in a recommendation for a 27% decrease in commercial quota for 2009. I think that by loosening any more loopholes right now will just cut our chances of continueing to fish at all in the near future. There was a huge increase in catch and release of king salmon in the areas of high abundance this year with the mortality rate in salt water of 40 % or more. Lets not encourage any new or easier way of killing more.

[Salty]

Thanks Ed!! Please post the data on mortalities of Chinook in SW. There is a lot of conflicting stuff out there. I have seen stuff on mature coho in Canada testing double hook barbless mooching rigs vs. single hook mooching rigs where the 24 hour mortality was about 25% for both groups. I know California figures a very high mortality rate on Chinook released from bait.
What is going on with your Juneau AC?

Happy thanksgiving.

[LMC]

Hello all. I normally don't feel the need to comment, just enjoy reading the posts. But since we are on the subject, how do you guys feel about #329 (4 lines west of Spencer July 1 outside state waters). ATA did not support this proposal last round. Just curious about what other trollers have to say about this.
Thanks.

Great forum I really enjoy reading the different posts.
Loren Clark
Yakutat

[yak2you2]

In as much as having hydraulic hand gurdies sounds like it could make life a lot easier, I think Ocean Gold is right, I'm sorry to say. Until the sport fishery, and the plummeting allocation issues can get straightened out, It seems like we should probably be a little conservative with this one. We have to get a solid battle plan for dealing with the blossoming numbers of guides boats. To me the best solution is going to be the oldest one in the play book, divide and conquer. We need to focus on blitzing the older members of the charter fleet who would be eligible if there were some sort of a limited entry system implemented with statistics. In yakutat we don't even have a tiny fraction of the sport infestation that southeast has but it's still to much. The number of full time charter boats has quadrupled in 6 years time. To some up the problem in a nutshell, the words of my guide buddy who's been in the business for a long time say it best," great, now there's a boat for every guy that wants to go fishing". The point is, Yakutat has more charter boats than there is sportsfisherman to support the industry. The message we have to get acrossed to the old guides is, after you've totally consumed the commercial allocations of halibut and king salmon, at the rate their over populating they will eventually put themselves out of business. They simply have to have a cap, and, so far it appears that the only organization that's going to be strong enough to implement it, is going to be themselves, they lawsuit everybody else right under the table. To me, getting half of their ranks to step forward and say,"enough, we need to go limited entry in order to save ourselves," is going to be the only way to stop it.
As far as the 4 lines west of Spencer for hand trollers proposal, I have high hopes for it passing this time. It's written up correctly, and there shouldn't be anyone with any valid reasons for opposing it. In retrospect, I guess I don't blame anyone one for opposing it last time. It is a fact that it was written up wrong by the then chairman of the Yakutat advisory committee and had it passed as written, it would have allowed for 4 lines on handtrollers in federal waters from Dixon to Suckling (all of southeast). Spencer west is the only place where 6 lines are allowed for power trolling, and it's the only place that 4 lines should be allowed for hand trolling, it's that simple. For the A.T.A, or anyone to have supported it as it was written last time would have made a huge mess. It would have been nice if someone who knew what they were doing could have stepped in and amended it back then, but it is what it is. I certainly will be looking to see who supports it this time though.

[Salty]

I thought the regulation was 6 lines for power trollers in Federal Waters[u] west of Cape Spencer.

[yak2you2]

It is 6 lines for power trolling only in federal waters, 3 miles offshore, from Spenser to Suckling. A lot of coho can be caught there though, and if the weather is decent, it's easily with in range of the handtroll fleet. It's cool because by the time your over the line your usually in about 100 fms. nothing at all to worry about snagging up on, just fish. For those of us fishing by ourselves without an auto pilot, it's extra special. I usually just make sure I'm a good mile away from anybody, and then I don't even have to pay attention to anything but cranking or cleaning. I don't exactly know yet how I could rig up 4 lines on my little boat with out it turning in to a giant cluster, but that's just me, there's a lot of guys cranking that have a plenty big enough boat to make it work.

[Ocean Gold]

All things being equal, wouldn't a power troller that takes 4 lines and turns them into 6 lines +1/3 be the same as a hand troller taking 2 lines and turning them into 3 lines +1/3 ? or am I missing something? Just thinking out loud, maybe I should keep my thought to myself, but? Does that mean a HT can use 6 poles?

[yak2you2]

I can't dispute your math, but it would be kind of hard to drag around 3 lines wouldn't it? doesn't even out very well. I can just tell you that at that particular time of the year, in that particular place, handcrankers aren't much of a factor to begin with, when they can even get out there at all. Plus, like I said, probably 1/2 of the local crankers don't really have boat enough to handle 4 lines.There is no changes recommended for the current 4 sport pole limit for hand trolling. The only thing that would change would be 2 gurdies to 4.
Honestly, I really don't care one way or the other for my personal sake, I like my boat just like it is and I'm not changing it. I just can't see where the small amount of fish difference that it's likely to make is worth holding back the handful of guys who are trying to make a living at it, that are interested in trying it, from halving the option.
The same goes for switching handtrolling over to 2 power lines. If it could be written up in such a way that it was an option that the handtroller could choose, and it was written in a way that would exclude card carrying charter boat operators from using it when they have clients on board, I would support it.
Consider this, every troller that you can help stay in business during the tough years ahead, and the little guys will be getting hit the hardest, is one more guy carrying a spear on your side of the field. If that means changing the rules around a little bit to help keep him in business, well isn't that better than him using his boat and permit to start taking clients with crew licsenses out "dude fishing", and playing for the other team?

[Salty]

Yak,
We don't want those guys who could go from the wonderful carbon efficient lifestyle of trolling salmon to the carbon guzzling, resource trashing, community disrupting, industry of saltwater sportfish guiding. If you are one of these guys take a good look in the mirror. Your industry has become a cancer on our SE fishing communities. You have grown out of control, you are practically unmanageable, and you are sucking resources critical to the life of others away from them. Years ago Alaska salmon fishermen said the same thing to the fish trap owners and operators. We said the same thing to the groundfish trawlers in SE Alaska just a few years ago. They are both gone from SE Alaska now.

I am a bit more tolerant of those who mistakenly started out guiding and are looking for a way out and are attracted to the much more earth friendly, environmentally conscious, and good neighborly business of trolling. I have at least one partner who does some part time saltwater guiding between freezer trips. He is working at moving in the "right" direction. I also support some of the guides who are both environmentally conscious and are good neighbors. They need to step up and distinguish themselves from the direction of their industry leaders now. I know how hard that is to do because I have stood up to my own industry several times over the years and still feel the political scars. One nice thing about being a SE salmon troller and associated with longliners in SE Alaska is that they have distinguished themselves over the years in supporting conservation first, even when it meant significant sacrifices.

Actually I should qualify this further because I have some very good friends who take tour ship clients out for half day fishing charters in Sitka. Toward the end of July last year one of these guys called me on the land line and begged for some help catching something. He claimed to have gone 7 days without a fish. Now that is the kind of Saltwater guide we need more of. I put him on some pinks and chums and when I talked to him about a week later he was ecstatic about catching about 2 chums and 4 pinks per four hour trip.

Any Alaskan saltwater guide in SE Alaska who has even a smidgen of environmental conscious has to be embarrassed by the comments of Earl Comstock this week in regards to the reduction in SE halibut quota and how that should apply to just the commercial harvest. And what are guides doing in response to these resource problems? They are organizing behind the scenes to pack Alaska Department of Fish & Game Advisory Committee meeting elections in SE and load the committees with fishing guides. So far, according to Ed Hansen, guides have taken over the Ketchikan, POW, Juneau, and just this week, the Wrangell Advisory Committees. While I applaud guides being involved in the AC process and made sure we had guide representation when I proposed designating the Sitka AC seats over 20 years ago, I am really upset when any interest group uses the relatively loose AC designation criteria to "load" the committees and corrupt what should be balanced local community perspectives on fish and game.
I feel somewhat eligible to say these things because my father was one of the pioneers of the SW sportfish guiding in SE Alaska in the late 50's and early 60's. I have been licensed as a SW guide and even took paying customers one trip one year. One of those customers, a renowned orthepedic doctor, just treated one of my knees last month. I have some idea of what a wonderful business SW guiding in SE can be. I also know what the failure of the guiding industry and our Federal and State fishery managers to manage the industry has led us to.
It is time for a change.

[mswkickdrum]

Wow,
I was just asking thinking it might make a hand troll license a good
investment for a beginner. Thank you SO MUCH for enlightening me
to what was really afoot and how it HIGHLY impacts what I'd like
to be doing very negatively.
It seems pretty common sense that :

A: If you're pulling salmon out of the water, and
B: The science says that the amount of salmon being pulled out
of the water needs to be reduced for a while or whatever in order
to insure the resource's future, that
C: ALL those involved in pulling salmon out of the
water would need to take that burden,
NOT excluding one group because they are part of the vaulted
"tourism" that everyone thinks is the holy grail of regional
economy building. Good grief! Folks must hate seeing those
guys buzz onto the drag.

Thanks for all the enlightenment!
MSW

[yak2you2]

Quite the contrary. Most charter boats mooch for salmon, which means they drift in one spot and all the clients will reel a plug cut herring up and down. A lot of the time the guide will occassionally throw a scoop of bait chunks over to try to chum the cohos in. I, use them as chum. In a little boat like mine I can cut a cookie right around them in a nice tight little circle. I'm talking 20 to 30 feet away, and more or less pimp everything they chum in, works good. I realize that it's a little sadistic but I get a certain satisfaction out of glancing over at a boatful of suddenly sober tourists, bobbing their little pencil poles up and down and watching with mouths agape, as I club a fatty at every stop right in front of them. Doesn't take very many passes and they pick up and move on.

[Salty]

Yak,
I didn't mean you when I said "If you are one of these guys look in the mirror." I meant if a charter operator happened to be reading this. Just reread it and realized it could have been taken personally. Glad you didn't take umbrage.

[yak2you2]

I knew what you meant capt., if i had taken offense, you would have already read about it.

[Ocean Gold]

Has anyone thought of permit stacking? It has worked in other fisheries to reduce effort and increase one's bottom line for the additional investment. Their are times I would like to drag six lines or maybe eight. Just a tought............

[yak2you2]

With regard to handtroll card carrying charter boats taking advantage of proposal 328 by way of running electric down riggers and clients. A friend of mine was telling me that the S.E. charter fleet is now starting to target Blackcod with these types of rigs, anybody know anything about this? I really like the sounds of this particular proposal, but until it can be isolated out in such a way that guarantees that the sports fish industry doesn't use it to leach more product away from the commercial fisheries to temporarily sustain the locust-like industry that chartering has become, I can't support 328.

In light of how aggressive the sport industry has become, it is obvious that nothing short of a legal battle is going to stop them from devouring every single fishery, and ultimately themselves. Every other economic aspect of harvesting seafood has faced limited entry, they MUST too!

Every single commercial fisherman, and responsible charter boat operator should consider it their duty to start calling and writing their legislators and asking them, " How many charter boats is to many? and tell them, "You must recognize that ignoring the dilemma of not having a limit to the number of charter boat vessels in all areas of Alaska, and, allowing the guided sport fishing industry to over populate is ultimately going to have a catastrophic affect on all aspects of Alaska's fisheries, resources, and the communities which depend upon them.

[sixlines]

Well I've beenthinking about this one for awhile.It should be illegel to sell salmon for less than fair market value.Salmon caught off commercial salmon boats,should be required to sell at,at least local dock price and pay all salmon taxes that are due on the wight thats sold. That would eliminate miss use of salmon and area taxes.Make these charter boats acountable for fish that their giving away.I know its being abused.