Some chum questions for Salty...
groundhog
2009-07-21 00:29:12
I am probably the greenest commercial fisherman in Alaska at this moment in time. I've never deckhanded for anyone. Never even talked shop with a real fisherman face-to-face. What I do know comes from reading this site and looking at commercial fishing boats at my buddies fabrication shop.
So.. I rigged my skiff up with some davits, as per Yak. Tied up some gear and went fishing.
The first day out we caught 52 chum and 4 kings in about three hours. We trolled at 1.5 knots, had twelve fathoms of wire out, two flashers with hootchies per side (down deep) and the rest were king spoons. We also released several nice halibut.
What gives? From all I've read on this site we shouldn't have caught that many chums. My next experiment will be to rig up properly for chums, troll slow, and see what happens. Maybe I'll catch a bunch of coho.
steffco
2009-07-21 01:22:38
GH,
I am not Salty and I am about as green as you but I have a couple of thoughts.
1.5 kts is kinda slow for Kings, I usually aim for 2.75 or so. I got chased off the grounds last summer and with a following sea could not go less than 5 kts and i was catching kings better than when i was going my target speed.
If you have a subsistence Halibut card and do not have halibut IFQ's you can keep them for yourself.
I used to hate hooking up to a halibut but now they are welcomed to my club!
Keep up the learing and your next worry will be how to keep your hands from cramping cause of all the fish you catch.
Steffco
groundhog
2009-07-21 02:23:29
Steffco, thanks for the reply.
That brings up another question:
When fishermen talk about trolling speed. I assume there talking SOG as reported by the GPS.
That's all I have to go by at the moment. My transducer doesn't have a speed wheel. Even If it did, I doubt those things are very accurate at low speeds.
So of course the actual speed of my gear through the water is going to change with the current speed & direction.
yak2you2
2009-07-21 02:43:05
I don't know anything about chums, but I hear tell they like 1.5 knts. In a flat calm bay with no current 2.5 to 3.0 knts is ideal for kings and cohos, but that changes with any current. If your trolling with a steady 3 knt. current, you may need to troll at 5 to 6 knts. to catch, that's on the GPS. The opposite would hold true for going into the current.
The best thing I can tell you is you need to learn to judge the right speed without looking at the GPS. Meaning figure out the angle of your leeds at the right speed, notice how far your insulator trails out of the water, something that you can use as base for how fast the gear is actually trailing. Another trick is to just watch how your gear is working as your putting it out. Hotspots should be turning a nice even roll at about every second or so, spoons a nice steady wable without beging to crazy.
Lastly, remember, these equations change with the water temp. and time of the year. When their cold they get lethargic, time to slow up for them a little bit. Hey man, 52 chums and 4 kings in 3 hours is pretty good for this year!! Where's the pictures??? Good fishin' !!
groundhog
2009-07-21 03:18:31
Now things are starting to make some sense. I was definitely going to slow the whole time.
Before you congratulate me any more on my success, I forgot to mention we were fishing over a monstrous school of fish pretty much the whole time.
The real success story was how much fun we had, and the enthusiasm my jaded 16 y/o son showed.
Salty
2009-07-21 04:56:56
Well, I will probably be roasted for this by other chum trollers who want to keep secret all that we have learned. But, politically it is important for the troll fleet to start to figure out how to catch chums and the more trollers who realize that chums are part of the equation for success over the long term the better for all of us. We are leaving millions of dollars a year on the table in unharvested Alaska hatchery value that is allocated to trollers. If we dont' start doing better at catching our share then it will be permanently allocate away from us.
There is no practical or forseeable way we can catch our share given the relative failure of the Chinook hatchery program, the so-so success of the coho hatchery program and the resounding success of the SE chum hatcheries unless we catch more chums. (Actually our SE Chinook hatchery program has been great at keeping us fishing in May and June and keeping SE Chinook flowing to the markets even though the numbers have not been great.) So trollers have to figure out how to catch more Alaska hatchery chum. Some of us have figured it out, relatively speaking. There is still a lot to learn, the fishery is young and the gear and techniques are evolving rapidly.
I just returned from the Neets Bay Chum troll fishery. We were allocated 200,000 chums and caught them in 17 days. It was envisioned that 20-30 trollers would show up and we would work all month and still likely not make 200,000. Well, I think over 50 trollers showed up and catch rates stayed relatively good even in the crowded conditions. These chums this year in Neets Bay were the best biters I have ever seen and I have been fishing chums since 1988. They won't bite this well every year. They didn't bite this well in 2003. I have never seen the Sitka chums bite this well even though they vary in their "catchability" every year.
The fleet behaved remarkably well with most guys working their own areas and seldom crowding others. Catch rates varied remarkably according to the processors with the more experienced guys from Wrangell, Petersburg, and Sitka doing quite a bit better once the fleet arrived. But the Ketchikan and Craig guys were catching on quick and will be better geared and system set up next time.
I imagine it will be a total mess if we ever have a fishery again with 100 or more boats likely to show up. 30 is about right for the Bay. 50 is too many and I can't imagine the mess with 100. But that is fishing, we do the best we can dealing with the crowd. I understand the guys still working are co-operating and helping each other in order to produce enough to keep the processor interested in retaining a packer. I think that is one of the most wonderful troll stories I have ever heard.
To answer the question about catching 52 chums and 4 kings. Great, and here are some things to try next time. We usually drag 20-30 flashers a wire and it seems that the critical mass of the gear helps stimulate the chums to bite. Chums will not always load in the top 6-10 fathoms so I often don't put gear there. Chums seem to bite best between 0.8 and 1.7 knots over water in my experience. Kings will also bite at this speed but will also bite at over 3.0. I like about 1.3- 1.5 for chums.
We use straight flashers with a variety of bugs. Some commercial made Michael baits such as the J300, A68, B6, and sockeye bugs are popular. I have custom made bugs made in the Philippines and also cut up hootchies and tie my own bugs. Each chum stock seems to have a different color that works best for it. Keep trying different colors and don't forget about the bare hook. I used bare hooks for years. They fish great but are harder to handle so most of us have gone to bugs. I use tail leaders from 18-30 inches depending on the stock.
I usually try multiple depths until I find the depth they will load the gear at best. Everything else being equal I prefer deeper because that gives you the opportunity to present more gear.
If you are going to fish chums you have to plan for it. You need at least one slush tank and two brailer bags for each tank they fit in. Each brailer bag needs to be thoroughly washed and dipped in a bleach solution before it is re-used. Re-using brailer bags after unloading and a quick hose down is unacceptable. Bacteria loads build up quickly on the bags and transfer to the fish quickly. Slush bags are in the same category. No slush bag should be re-used until it is thoroughly washed and dipped in a bleach rinse. Holds need to be thoroughly washed, soaped, bleached, and rinsed before the brailer bag is re-inserted. I have three brailer bags for each spot I put them in. One for use, one being stored, dried and cleaned, and one for ice. I rotate them through this cycle so that we know every bag and every tank is clean enough.
Does the fleet do this? Not in my observation. But, the fishery is young and we are all evolving. I started out layer icing pinks and chums. Not an acceptable solution.
A bit about handling chums. The evolving ettiquette among many of us who have fished chums for many years is that this fishery is quite different from King and coho fishing. For example: We don't conk chums. There are too many, and if you fish them for a season and conk 20,000 ( I caught over 20,000 one year) or even 10,000 on your side then your elbow and shoulder will feel every "conk". We slip them aboard and remove the hook with a quick twist. Some of us have used barbless hooks when the fishing is good to minimize the strain on the wrist and shoulder pulling a barb through a tough chum jaw.
The ergonomics of motion and your system of flow from when and how the fish comes over the rail until it is in the brailer bag and then off loaded are critical to long term production. Conking a chum repeatedly, gaffing it and throwing it across your body over the stern, over the cockpit, and into a middle checker with a thud is just foolishness and will compromise your eventual production.
If you are going to fish chums seriously then you also have to think about how you are going to set your gear. My son Karl invented a gear setting system that he custom builds for each boat that eliminates picking up and throwing hooks or flashers into the water. We just snap the snaps onto the wire and the wire pulls the leader, flasher, and hook neatly into the water. It makes setting 25-30 flashers a wire almost effortless.
I hope this helps. Good luck. Thanks for asking. We have a chum trollers association. I am the Secretary/Treasurer. Dues are $50 for life. Our address is Chum Troller's Association, 103 Gibson Place, Sitka, AK. We have about 25 regular members. Stephen Rhoads is our Chairman. We lobby for chum trollers and work to improve market opportunities.
groundhog
2009-07-21 17:56:18
Thank you Salty.
I will try some of your suggestions next time we go out.
Obviously, to make money fishing chums one needs a real powertroller setup in the efficient manner you described.
We aren't there yet.
Another problem is the area that we fish. We are located halfway between Hoonah and Excursion Inlet. Hoonah isn't interested in chums, and Excursion pays 35 cents/pound dressed. The chums we caught were very bright with small eggs. I think that later on in the year, Excursion accepts round chums.
Can you tell me a bit more about the business end of the round chum troll fishery? Why aren't any trollers targeting these fish? Are the processors too far away, or are the eggs too small?
With the crowding problems you described in Neets Bay, it seems like it would be worthwhile to find other dog patches.
I've even thought of building a freezer on the beach to store fish until a tender came by.
yak2you2
2009-07-21 20:19:02
I live a long way away from anywhere myself. I've wanted to try the spring king fishery for a while now, but we don't have one. I've been thinking about putting my rig on the ferry, and going where ever I want to be. when I'm sick of it, I hop back on the ferry, and go home. Might be the way for you to go Chum fishing. Pack up a tent, and go on a little adventure.
groundhog
2009-07-21 21:35:23
That was the way the oldtimers handtrolled. We've found several of their old campsites on our property. I can tell you they were fond of ketchup and tobasco.
I wonder how they parked their skiffs at the end of the day. Did they drag them up the beach? Rig up an outhaul?
On an extreme low tide you can see a few old worm-eaten logs with big rocks piled on each end. Maybe they are some forgotten handtrollers mooring anchor.
A camping/trolling adventure would be fun, except I spent the past several summers camping on the beach while building the cabin. It will be a while before I want to walk away from its hot showers and flush toilet.
However, if you decide to do it and you find yourself in Icy Strait, you're welcome to stop in for a visit and shower.
Whoa, getting off topic here....
Still wondering if freezing chums would be viable.
Salty
2009-07-21 22:06:21
Groundhog,
I fished chums, or tried to, for several years in the Excursion Inlet area. My sister owns property up in the head of the bay. Not the lot next to the Park but the one next to it. They have not developed it yet.
I just had a long talk with a friend of mine in Cross Sound. My understanding is that the net price for chums is $.45 and $.25 for pinks in SE. For Ocean Beauty to be paying trollers less than this is just absolutely criminal. I heard they are offering $.15 for round pinks and $.30 for dressed chums. What is with that?
We usually get at least a nickle and more often a dime more for round troll chums than the net price. You guys fishing in that area should be outraged at this treatment. We just got paid $.50 for round chums in the Neets Bay fishery by three different companies. We were paid $.25 for pinks. Ocean Beauty paid $0.70 per pound for the Deep Inlet Cost Recovery Chums. Sitka Sound was paying $.55 for gillnet round chums from Deep Inlet when I left for Neets Bay.
Call Mike Erickson at Glacier. Do something about this. It is wrong. Call Governor Parnell.
groundhog
2009-07-22 03:18:25
Salty,
I don't plan on selling in Excursion at those prices, and Glacier Seafoods is too far away for the amount of fish we can carry.
Unless I can hoard the chums I catch in a freezer, and find someone who buys frozen chums, this is probably a pipe dream.
I was able to get a very good price for that first batch of chums we caught. We traded them to an electrician from Hawaii in exchange for wiring up our cabin. He loved the salmon, and we love the job he did.
Why did you give up on the Excursion Inlet chum fishery? If you don't mind me asking.
evgeny
2009-07-23 04:39:35
Hi colleagues!
I am Evgeny from Russia Far East. I live in Vladivostok which is situated on the Japan sea Western coast. We catch a lot of cherry salmon here in June-July, chum come usually in August but we do not have an experience to troll the chum. What kind of equipment do you use for trolling chum.
Please respond or send me link where I can look at. Thank you in advance, Evgeny.
My e-mail:
ezhiga@rambler.ru
Salty
2009-07-24 04:35:21
Look up salmon trolling on the internet and you should get some diagrams. It is the way to produce the highest quality salmon. Labor intensive though.