grapple hook ???
John Murray
2009-05-02 17:00:15
Had interesting talk last nite about grapple hooks and troll etiquette(that word was as hard to find in the dictionary as it is to find it on the Cape Cross drag at times for me)around the fire at HP-REC.Cape Cross what a great place to troll, but I could be talking about any tight drag.I've spent alot of time at Cape Cross it was always a challenging and sometimes a rewarding spot.It used to be only a couple gougers,short tackers or otherwise hard to fish around guys.They would usally get the message that what they were doing wasn't cool with fleet vie different methods and stop the bs.Sometimes even with a decent size fleet everything would move and groove and there was fish around.Now a days exspeccially during coho it sound like a battle up there at times.Some guys just seem to shuck and jive to get that extra pass at whose expense?Well, for most of us were not radio policeman we really don't want to be on the V yelling at that yahoo.Which lead to the grapple hook discussion.Should one have to resort to the threat of hooking the greeddy troller who seems to cut in front of your boat and proceed to slow down so your right in their floatbags.Or should you call the guy on 16 and switch up and try to work it out?It does seem like most of us want to work it out without going to the extreme.But somethings changed in the last 10 years the greed factor the a-hole factor is happening way to much.
My point is there is a troll ediqette even at Cape Cross or Edgecumbe or there should be.There are basic thing you do to reduce conflict even if it means on the backtack you end up off Sqiud bay or Greentop before you make your beach pass.
Is a grapple to that idiots floatline the way to get their attention?Yelling on 16?Talking to them in person?Just leaving?
I've pretty much gave up fishing certain spots because of the new breed of a-holes who seem to have sprung up.What the real bummer is they seem to be multiplying.
Carol W
2009-05-02 17:58:57
Another tactic that has worked for some old timers but with today's plotters probably won't work is to hold coarse bow to bow and when the S.O.B. thinks he is getting the inside he realizes he ran out of water. An old timer old me once that he has caught more fish going out and around boats thaan he ever has gouging, unfortunately our fishery has changed negatively with the advent of cell phones and other communication devices and the sense of community has slipped and therefor the ettiquete on the drags has gone severely down hill. Like you John I am considering moving my operation away from Sitka tired of the fleet and the A holes on the drag.
ambition
2009-05-03 04:26:11
I am a new comer to the troll fleet, and I am disgusted with how my first year turned out on the Sitka Sound line. I can't believe how many boats couldn't follow simple rules, be it ettiquete rules or boundry rules. There were a few days out there I was almost ashamed to be associated with the troll fleet. I know I am not perfect and I am sure I upset a few people. But I think I am still in good standing compared with many of the boats out there. I don't know what to do out there, I can't afford to risk damage to my boat, can't afford a boundry fine, and trying to get it worked out on the radio most of the time doesn't work because they just ignore you or try and get a rise out of you. I am already disgusted, not a good sign considering I have many years of trolling ahead of me. What can an honest man do to keep his sanity and make a living?
ericv
2009-05-03 06:03:07
This is good timing for this subject as the transition takes place between the winter and summer season. I agree that in my time of trolling I too have seen an increase in foul behavior and not just by newer folks on the drag. Two years ago south of Biorka I got blatantly stuffed into a known pinicle patch by two large trollers with veteran operators. I had the starboard side drag and our small troller was no match. I swear the lead boat operator was gloating over his accomplishment. Despite break straps and extra throttle, that fiasco cost me over $400 in lost gear, not to mention the known salmon I had on those spreads. No radio call, no nothing. The second troller following close behind the first could have easily swung wide to starboard allowing me to sheer hard to port, no way, just stared straight ahead like no one was there. What to do? Thank God my 270 was at home on that particular day. I'd never advocate that kind of response but I'll be honest, it would have taken some serious restraint at that moment. I agree that the radio call is iffy at times but there are folks that when they do make an error, call up and apologize which to me makes them a true fisherman. Unfortunately I don't see much changing, society in USA has changed. You see at the 4 way stop, the store, sports, jobs etc it's that "me" attitude and oblivion to others that we now see out on the drag at times.
What I have been doing more and more is to seek out places with few or no trollers. Yes I may not get as many in the hold but at least the peace is of value to me. There is no greater thrill than finding a nice patch of kings or coho's and no one else. My best trip last summer was that way and I was able to zig and zag and work those fish and the gear to great advantage and no elevated blood pressure. Thankfully there are still many good operators out there and it is always nice to be within that crowd. We all make mistakes out there but it isn't intentional and amends are made at the soonest time. As they say, take the high road on this stuff if you can, what comes around goes around, good things come to good people. Eventually those who are causing the heartburn will end up paying their dues one way or another.
Carol W
2009-05-03 17:43:28
I have also run into a holes on the drag and am often amazed at how differently people think,I often times when pulling into a drag get behind the boat working the spot or make sure I am not right in front of the boat behind me. There is one boat in particular who has found me fishing a spot in Oct and whenever he finds me he drops his gear right in front of me (500 yards or less) even when as often is the case I am the only boat on the drag then my blood pressure goes sky high and my catch rate goes to $%^&. You would think I am some sort of highliner as often as this guy has corked me.
I also tend to drift off by myself and have had some fairly spectacular days fishing all alone and knowing how I enjoy catching without help around if I encounter a lone boat andwant to find out what he is doing I try to be as unobtrusive as possible and even if he is fishing a spot differently than I do I try to fish it his way as to not interfere.
Salty
2009-05-03 19:15:31
First, I confess that I am a sinner. I have not been easy to fish around during my career for a variety of unjustifiable reasons. In the last few years I have sought out some individuals and personally apologized for behavior 10 -20 years ago. Those have sometimes been difficult conversations but I can report that everyone ended feeling better. The guys always remembered the incident(s) and genuinely appreciated the apology. I can't say that they thought better of me in every case. I am sure I will always be an arrogant, loudmouth, gouger to some of them. But, I feel better about making an attempt at amends for regrettable behavior.
And, believe it or not, I have really worked at being a gentleman on the drags, when I am forced to be on a drag with others, over the last few years. It is difficult because I don't have the same sense of "spacing" that lots of others seem to have. Perhaps it is because I fished the passes for so many years with float bags commonly bouncing off my bow or working the rip to make sure your floats cleared the other guys stabies was just part of the business. I don't usually feel gouged as easily as others do and don't hesitate to define my own parameters of what constitutes the "drag" either longer, shallower, deeper, or whatever to work the fish as I see the situation and fleet dynamics developing.
I had a long time troller fish with me some the last few years and he was just amazed at how little concern I had about the behavior of other trollers, even when to him they were obviously crowding us. On the other hand he was aghast at how comfortable I felt in some very close quarters chum fishing.
I bring this up because I am confident every troller is relatively unique in his/her comfort zone fishing in the fleet. Our understanding of "drag etiquette" is a combination of experience, folklore, dock and radio conversations, and our own unique sense of good manners. With few exceptions in the troll fleet most of us are really trying to be good neighbors on the drag, to behave in a way that engenders both appreciation and respect from our peers. We are trollers because we abhor conflict and crowding. We love fishing without another boat in sight. If we loved conflict we would be gillnetters or seiners.
Now to the point at hand. The absolute mess that developed at the winter line from Edgecumbe to Biorka this spring. First, the fact that the Board of Fisheries and the Department of Fish and Game never adopted official coordinates in regulation for the line there, which Ralph Guthrie and I proposed 9 years ago, has led to everyone calculating there own estimate of where the line was on their computer chart. This is a different place depending on the chart datum, whether you are using vector or rastar, whether you draw the line from the base of the light, from the edge of the shore, from the top of the light, etc. To illustrate how confusing this is it turns out that ADF&G and Fish and Wildlife Enforcement ended up with different latitude longitude coordinates. (It made no practical difference by the time the resulting lines got to the drag, but still they were different.)
When I entered the enforcement coordinates it turns out I have been fishing 50-100 yards outside of their line for years. And I have been generally disgusted with the guys fishing outside of me. So much for righteousness. Nearly everyone who has fished the winter line in recent years has been fishing illegally at least some of the time.
So, after the correct coordinates are communicated repeatedly to the fleet, 14 guys are busted, several more are warned, you would think things would change? I fished for part of two days on the line after the meltdown on channel 16 and the busts. I was appalled at the number of boats still fishing illegally. According to my new line I could not fish in the 42 fathom corner on the line without jousting repeatedly with the guys coming northwest on the edge. Obviously guys were still running the same depths and the "old" line. In order to fish the line I would have to fish illegally, become some sort of drag police, or joust repeatedly with guys still dragging 44 fathoms and trying to squeeze between the edge and me on the "legal" line.
I heard a lot of complaining about guys cutting in front of each other etc. To me there was no problem in that regard. With that many boats and so many different drags if there was room for a guy to squeeze in front of you for whatever reason, no problem. The problem was with guys coming Northwest on the backtack crowding the guys coming SE on the line. Another problem was guys running the line being off of the inside port side of guys outside the line. So when the guy outside the line decides to turn he has to practically ram the guy on his inside port side. There should be some kind of rule, "don't position yourself just behind the port side of another troller." But what do you do when the guy is outside the line, going about chum troll speed, you have no idea of when he is going to turn, and if you give him room then you are running into the idiots going NW on or just barely inside the line?
I gave up on fishing the line and it basically cost me my spring production as the fish were not in abundance elsewhere this spring. I heard all the stories about the clatters and I have experienced them in past years. I started fishing straight flashers for kings in the spring years ago when nearly everyone else was still fishing a combination of spoons and flashers. I don't mind the guys fishing chum speed if that is what is working. But I am disgusted by the general illegal nature of the fishery, the lack of etiquette in the fleet by crowding the line coming west, the stupidity of people trying to drag 44 or 48 up into the corner and the ensuing pinching and hostility that creates.
I don't know what we do about this situation. I fought really hard for this winter/spring fishery. But, it has become a problem. So what can we do about it?
I would rather we moved the fish we caught after April 14 on the winter line in Sitka Sound this year to the spring hatchery fishery or the summer fishery than go through this mess every spring. Perhaps we move the line after April 1 or 14 into about Lazarius or Shoals Point to avoid this line mess.
I think ambition said it pretty well:
"There were a few days out there I was almost ashamed to be associated with the troll fleet."
Well I was ashamed, am ashamed, and pretty determined to do something about it.
You either deal with it on your own boat, or go somewhere else.
The use of guns is ludicrous unless you really want to end up dead or in jail. I can't think of a stupider way to hurt someone than by firing a rifle on a crowded drag, or at another boat. If I saw someone shooting at anything on the water I would call the troopers and press charges for endangering the lives of everyone around. My safety will go up and their fishing season may be at an end. If you're the kind of person who might pull a gun out because of how another boat is being operated you should NOT have a gun on your boat. (I'm not directing this at you Eric, even though you mentioned it, just in general terms :) )
As for grappling someones floats... Do you think they're going to respond by thanking you for pointing out the error of their ways? Heck no, they're going to raise it up a notch and you had better hope they don't have a gun on their boat. There are some crazy people in this industry, I don't think you want to start trouble with a mental case with a high-powered rifle. Plus, what are you going to do with your grapple that's now stuck in their float bag and about to go into your prop or your gear? Sounds like you just increased the chance of hurting yourself (or your crew) and your fishing immensely.
If you can't handle the heat, get off the drag.
Angie
2009-05-04 18:26:40
Even if you think you are in the right, you talk to the guy later on the dock and get a completely different perspective. New guys might go more by rules and old guys might go more by "this is what the drag has always been." Or vice versa. When there are lots of boats and different ideas about where the drag is, everyone thinks their way is right.
I think there is a fine line of being respectful to other boats and being a pushover on the drag. If you are too respectful, you WILL get taken advantage of, although I wish it weren't, it is true. I think some people are such experts at driving that they use the rules to take advantage of other boats--tricky. Or maybe I'm just paranoid. And in reality, the balance between agressive/pushover is pretty difficult. I guess you just hope when you do stand your ground, the other guy doesn't have a gun. And when you are being a pushover, that you don't get too angry to let it ruin your day (or season!)
Oh, and then there's the person who consistently chooses neither and is just not paying attention--screw that guy!
spike christopher
2009-05-04 21:34:47
Sometimes I’m not sure if I should write on the forum or not as I don’t want to sound like a know it all. Sometimes it is a little more complicated than it first appears. I know as a rookie it is not easy to figure out. I’m new to the fishery but old in age. The first year and part of the second year I found it difficult to get the trollers to explain or even take time to talk to me as the new comer. Just as a war story I’ll explain one incident that occurred on the drag near the green buoy in front of Dixon Harbor. Being new to the game I was following the troller in front of me at what I thought was the correct distance of approximately quarter of a mile or so. The troller leading the way made a port turn to head back down the drag. I followed, watching him from the cockpit, I did not see another troller coming down on the back tack and was soon alerted by his horn. Thank god he had a puller and he was in the pilot house steering. It scared the day lights out of me and I turned out of his way, all was ok. No damage done other than starting to cut in front of another fisherman, or so I thought. A couple of days later while at Pelican unloading I went over to make an apology and got a ear full of crap. I was told by the individual that next time he was going to run into me to prove a point. I know this is BS as I don’t believe someone would run into someone else on purpose, ruining both boats and the fishing season. All this made me think, what kind of comradeship was really going on in the fishery. Over the last four years things have improved and I enjoy this fishery so very much. I hope we all take a deep breath in stressful times and understand that some times it is just a mistake with nothing meant by it. I also agree that some trollers personnel space is closer than others. As for me I don’t mind trollers fishing close to me as long as they are aware of what is going on and not trying to run me onto a pinnacle or up on the shallows. If there is any doubt I will always try to get out of the way, as far as I’m concerned my boat and safety to all is more important than right of way. But believe me I truly believe in the proper protocol and try to follow it to the best of my abilities.
So in closing this input I to would like to apologize to anyone that I have offended. The one thing that does bother me. Getting up early to get out on the drag only to have another boat come out an half an hour later and drop their gear right in front of you, OUCH that hurts.
ericv
2009-05-04 21:37:21
Jon, you bring up some very real and valid scenerios, especially regarding the firearms. Thank you for not pinning things directly on me regarding my 270 comment. For the record, that is a situation that simply
It gets busy on the drag at times, we jockey, we shift, we cut close a time or two but it usually works out. It can be a fluid mass that works well and other days its just a big cluster from the word go. At times one has to hold their line if they're in the rights, other times we just swing off and head to a lesser crowded area. We're all different and have different tolerance levels on a variety of things. The alarming part is you never know when someone is going to go berserk.
My own opinion is one of peace, not warfare out there. I'm of the opinion it's best to rage inside and stay alive to fish and enjoy life for another day. One wrong move in a rage can put one in a cell till they push up daisies, it's just not worth it. Jon's observations are of worthy consideration. Folks are stressed now more than ever regarding the many issues and one person's reaction just may tip things into a deadly frenzy.
There's that saying out there; "Life is Good". I'd like to think we can all work to maintain our thrill to fish, even in the sardine packed drag, yet still shout a hearty "hello" and a grin to each other as we glide on by float bag to float bag.
squarehead
2009-05-05 04:04:05
The use of guns is ludicrous unless you really want to end up dead or in jail.
If you can't handle the heat, get off the drag.
you sound like a real hot head. I an amazed at how Skippers think they can treat their fellow fisher persons like a piece of kelp on the drag endangering others gear and livelihood and then walk the dock as if nothing happened.
Some of us are big guys and could stuff a offending skipper through a hole in the dock and others believe that Samuel Colt made all men equal.
She truth is that people will behave under threat of law suit / money loss or physical pain.
most of the other solutions won't work no teeth not much of a bite.
Almost no one has any manners any more.
Hmm... I was trying to say, if the drag gets a person so upset that they get violent or 'hot headed', they might be better suited to fishing somewhere else with less boats. You can't keep everyone "in line", you just have to deal with it in a respectful and reasonable manner.
Yelling, threatening, harassing, etc... are a waste of time and energy and will make everyone around include yourself unhappy and on-edge. I've been guilty of yelling (thankfully not on 16) and harassing, and it's not worth it. That's been my experience.
John Murray
2009-05-13 16:33:54
Back to a post by Eric V.Your run -in with those two trollers reminds me of a satisfying story from Deer harbor in the early 80's.Deer harbor had a bad reputation back then it seemed like some guys didn't want any more boats show up on" their drag",things would happen to the invader.There was a number of things done to make sure most guys wouldn't stay too long.
Well there used to be a guy called Big Bruce,the boat usally had a list to the side of the boat he sat on,the port I think.He seemed pretty mellow to fish around and he fished up and down Yakobi and the Sound.One of the Juneau high pressure trollers F/V-------------did some fancy gougeing on a regular basis and got away with most of the time.Well he cut the wrong troller that one time when he cut Bruce off and Bruce lost some gear.So during their turnaround Bruce meant with the guy at one of the bars in Pelican.He walked up to the Mr.Gouge placed his extra large hands on the guys shoulders and said --------you owe me such and such for the cut off.I heard there was no agrument and the guy cut the check.
Things were straight foward at the Cape drag and Deer harbor back then.But some guys couldn't help themselves greed got in the way.It almost seemed some guys prided themselves in being Deer harbor holes.
Big Bruce was one of my heroes that season.At least someone called the gougers hand and won the pot and gained alot of respect.No one screwed with Bruce much after that.
Sometimes Yakobi still turns into a pressure cooker.Yeah there's always the throw in the towel option and let the holes win or more people take a stand and call the small percentage of idiots who think gougeing pays.
Hi John Murray, I have written you a private message.....
Tim