Black Box
Big Chinook
2017-01-03 21:08:13
I've read through a number of post on the black box. Would just like to hear a little more input on pros and cons of it? What kind of numbers are you looking for and do you need different voltage for each kind of salmon?
Also pacific net & twine sells a Russell Black box is it a good one to have?
Thanks for any help
Once and Future
2017-01-04 02:07:46
Well holy hubs of Hannah. The most dangerous topic on the forum. I dunno, we covered that pretty thoroughly a couple times. Probably the threads got so long that it's hard to find the gist.
I forget what the consensus was. The wire in the water should be between 0.67 and 0.72 volts positive with respect to the rudder post? With the voltmeter on the lowest possible range.
How eager are you to spend money? Do you know what your boat measures right now? If it is already in that range, why spend the money plus risk messing with your boats electrolysis? My boat came with a Russell Black Box, but due to boat's natural voltage I usually don't turn it on. If you furnish a link to the black box you are looking at, I can see if it looks like mine.
Big Chinook
2017-01-04 04:06:07
So how do you go about checking without the black box. Do you hold a volt meter on the wire?
Once and Future
2017-01-04 16:26:10
Yes. I had to solder a wire on to make my voltmeter lead (wire) longer so it would reach. I also solder alligator clips on ends. One gets clipped on your wire with cannonball lowered over the side as deep as practical in the harbor. The other end gets attached to the rudder post, which is considered the "ground" connection.
This will get you useful information. Some people will say you have to be at sea with the cannonball deeper; and at trolling speed. You can play with that eventually, but it's not important for now. Once you establish the value at the dock under easy circumstances, then you compare it to what you get while actually fishing. And then you can see what the difference is and be pretty sure what is should read at the dock to be correct at sea.
Some people will say you need a high dollar voltmeter to have good readings. I suspect there's really not that much difference. I guess somebody could compare voltmeters on identical readings. Like old cameras, you might get a cheap one that works well, and the next cheap one won't be good.
My meter has a millivolt range. 700mv= 0.07 volts.
Big Chinook
2017-01-04 17:36:25
Once and Future, thank you very much. We will be cleaning bottom sometime and putting on fresh zinks and then will check it out. Will wait for better weather though.
Crawfish
2017-01-07 21:35:30
Black box = Brain snakes.
Just kidding, except not really.
A lot of boats properly set up fish well with the boxes turned off. If your boat has proper hull potential and you have proper line voltage differential and the boat is bonded eliminating stray current you should be good without a box.
But there is always the exception. Lulu is huge into the magic, maybe he will chime in and line you out with some down and dirty info.
Once and Future is giving good advice about getting a baseline reading.
If $1200 bucks is an issue for the box which is a fancy potentiometer, You can adjust your line voltage by adjusting the length on your break always on the leads. Still not enough differential you may have bad lead or other issues. Get a baseline on what your hull potential is and what your line voltage is and we can give you some tips if need be on getting it adjusted.
Big Chinook
2017-01-08 03:31:15
The Black Box I was looking at is a Russell at Pacific Net & Twine. They list it for about $800 cdn, so comes out to about $600 US funds. Does anyone know anything about these? Will defiantly do testing on boat before making any discussions on any purchases. The only thing I've heard about the Russels is he was the inventor of them. So would be great to hear some input.
Salty
2017-01-09 19:43:20
I have spent time with Russell. Visited him at his home in Victoria. In my opinion there is a combination of science, magic, and psychology involved in magnetic field attraction for fish, and particularly for salmon and tuna and getting bites. I have invested thousands of dollars in tuning my 36 foot fiberglass troller up to optimize my potential and confidence. When the science and psychology are working trolling can become magical to the point your partners don't want to hear the scores, you become adept at delivering to several processors, delivering part of your catch one day and the rest other days.
The problem is once given a taste of that you are so hooked that you will forever be seeking the magic again. And, at least in my experience, it can be elusive. Go down the black box magnetic field route with caution, it can be addictive and expensive.
Big Chinook
2017-01-12 02:45:21
So in other words once you get into the black box your heading over to the Dark side. Do anyone know about the Russel Black Box from pacific net and twine?
Once and Future
2017-01-12 03:41:36
Pacific Net and Twine website doesn't give us much to go on, does it? No picture, model number, whatever. I bet they are the same as what Salty and I have on our boats. There's not that much to them. Since it says "Russell Black Box", I would say you are on the right track.
Salty
2017-01-12 06:48:13
I agree with once and future.
Been a while since logging in. I will echo Salty's thoughts from Jan 9th. I've sent a lot of time with Malcolm and his black box has made me a lot of money. But, an understanding of the concept and how to tune the boat is absolutely critical in making the box work. Don't invest the time or money unless you want to study the subject. It goes far beyond wiring the box to the gurdies.
Big Chinook
2017-01-31 23:38:14
Thanks guys for all the imput. I will test the system and see what it is reading and adjust from there. If I need a black box then I'll get one.
Crawfish
2017-02-01 21:43:06
Lulu,
How much do you think your production increases with vs without the box, all things being equal?
carojae
2017-02-08 07:49:16
I've had a black box for years. The only thing I can say for sure is it's never proved to me it could turned on a bite.
It is nice to see if your voltage is up or down but I have never seen a setting that I can say "brought em in". But then again, there's probably some guru that will snicker at this post.
Really I think the Canadians started messing with our heads telling us to buy these things. Told us our leads were contaminated and laughed their asses off. Imported a bunch of hootchies and called em yamaSHITa for us to buy and laughed some more. Crazy..
I was fortunate to have had a good "natural" positive line voltage reading that was relatively fishy on my last troller, a steel Ft Bragg boat. But I appreciated being able to turn on the BB and be able to boost to a higher range for enticing deep Chum. The ability to easily verify/check my "natural" line voltage through the connections of the BB was also a plus.
Trnaround
2017-02-08 23:07:24
I have always had a black box onboard and always fished with it on. I usually put it to the voltage that seems optimum for that species of salmon and then just forget about it. Playing with the voltages has never been productive for me but having a consistent line voltage can take away one variable and now you can get on with the next one (of many) that can help you catch more fish. The worst scenario is stray voltage from improperly bonded motors and metals or stray current from shorts and voltage leaks. Those things can actually deter the fish from biting. Most of us live in fear of being that guy that can't get a bite when everyone else seems to be catching (been there). If you are that guy you may check your boat for things like that and learn more about how to get your boat to be more fishy. If your boat is fishing ok relative to others that may be all you need to know. I can't say I have ,like Salty, had to sell to different buyers to disguise my good catch rate but there are times when all the planets line up and you have managed to do everything right and they bite for you. No better feeling for sure.
Kelper
2017-02-09 16:02:53
One day last year in the second king opening I had 11 kings on the starboard side, and 1 king on the port side. I was scratching my head and my crewman was giving me crap as all the kings were on his side. But, the coho catch rate was the same for both sides. Being a beginner, I didn't immediately start investigating. Turns out that the wire from the gurdy to the black box on the port side had corroded and broken off at the connector. Doh! Things evened out after that was squared away.
Trnaround
2017-02-09 19:05:58
Exactly Kelper, I have had similar experiences and it has convinced me there that there is definite effects from electrical issues on catch rate. The black box can certainly give you one more tool in tuning your boat but I don't think it will over ride bigger problems if they exist. Usually if my boat is catching on one side more than the other it is because my wife is fishing with me and she is just a better fisher person. Or maybe I am so busy cleaning the fish she is catching my side never gets run and I am loaded with jelly fish. Ya that's more likely. Anyway I hope all your lines are sizzling hot this season.
Crawfish
2017-02-21 22:43:36
You know your black box is working well when your line snaps turn pink and the the trolling wire beads start eating off the wire. :D
Seriously though I know for a fact a black box is great for brain snakes, especially those of us who can't leave stuff alone. :D
Once and Future
2017-02-22 01:32:18
I'm a dope. Up above I have an inaccuracy. 700 milivolts actually equals 0.7 volts.
Nothing like a little disinformation to help with the brain snakes. And that always seems to happen on the topic of black boxes.
Salty
2017-02-24 17:25:35
Great thread.
Early in the 80's I bought my first black box to hook up on my wooden troller. I had a fabulous trip. My partner, who knew I had purchased the box, commented that I must really be happy with it. I said, "I am, it is working so well just sitting on the counter that I can't wait to hook it up and really start catching."
mb4570
2017-02-24 21:54:49
How do you check line voltage on aluminum boats? 34' aluminum Power Troller Canadian built
carojae
2017-02-25 06:09:52
mb, I imagine you just do like any boat. You put the negative on your hull and the positive on your wire while the line is submerged. Not for sure but that's what I'd do.
The gurdys are isolated therefore the wires?
mb4570
2017-02-25 06:20:30
Ok thanks I'll give it a try, wasn't sure it was the same as wood boat or glass boat but makes sense to use same test. Thanks
Robot
2017-03-23 04:15:42
I remember this topic from a while back. When I first joined this forum. Figuring out the fish was more than enough of a task for me at that time (with only a 1 king salmon score before I bought a permit and boat with cash!) I've since upgraded permit and just recently, boat. I thought you guys might enjoy some real BrainSnakes with a picture of the blackbox headunit system rigged on this sweetheart.
Note: She has 6 total 3" diameter anodes(?) below the water line on the hull too.
[attachment=0]BB.JPG[/attachment]
Crawfish's post from Feb 1: When everything is right, my one man operation can keep up with the highliners with crew. However, Lulu is a steel boat and the smallest of things can, like corrosive wire/terminal, create brain snakes until you find the problem. One thing I am absolutely convinced is the BB pays for itself when the fish are on top. Also, nearly every trip the biggest fish come on the top snooter spoon. That's an indication that the boat's electrical water signature is attacking fish to the boat. Someone posted a observation about one side fishing better than another, that's a red hot flag that something is wrong and you're losing production.
Someone else posted a thought about consistency. I absolutely agree. The BB helps keep the wire voltage constant for all six wires. Don't give the finny bastards a reason to not bite. Everything has got to be equal in a scratch bite or they just don't bite except for the stupid ones.
I've written it before and I'll repeat it. Don't get into a BB unless you want to stay up with the checking and maintenance. It's better to understand your boat's profile in the water, keep the anti-fouling paint fresh, new zincs (and scrub them a couple of times during the season), and make sure all electrical connections are clean; especially the bonding system.
And for the posting about pink snaps, turn the box down!!!
lcharge
2017-03-28 16:40:24
Well said Lulu. I've been out of commercial fishing for years, so I don't know what guys are using for bottom paint nowadays. We always used International copper paint which was somewhat absorbent, for lack of a better term. I believe that when you painted a steel rudder, for example, the steel under the paint was allowed to still interact with the zincs and to contribute to the overall hull's voltage field. If one went to an epoxy type paint where the coating was waterproof (insulating), your zincs would not corrode adequately throughout the season. That is something a guy should watch. If you changed paint recently, and/or your zincs do not corrode enough, take a close look at the paint you are using. Some guys with wood or glass boats used to leave their rudders unpainted so as to have a better reaction with the zincs, as the rudder is one of the largest underwater metals. I did this one year myself, but did not see any significant difference in the zinc corrosion over the season (International xxx paint). The strongest voltage contributor will most likely be the stainless or monel shaft and any (high) bronze fittings. They are higher on the galvanic scale than steel or copper and therefore will have the greatest reaction with the zincs. Every underwater (and above water) metals should be interconnected with the bonding system. In agreement with Lulu, I can't stress enough to go over all your underwater connections every year and to check the electrical continuity between each and every component and your bonding system. Don't forget the shaft bearing and rudder stock bearing housings as well as all metal through hull fittings. The extra hour it will take to do this will put fish in the boat. Also be careful not to overzinc. I used to judge my zincs so as to have about 1/8 to 1/4 of the original zinc left at annual spring haulout, and my boat was "fishy".
If you are using a multimeter to do an ohm (resistance or continuity) test on your under water metals to bonding system, remember that you can show continuity and still have a poor connection. The best test is with a power source and a light bulb (a modified flashlight will work). Just try to route the light bulb's ground through the component that you are checking and through the bonding system. If the bulb is weak or doesn't come on, clean the bonding connection until you get a strong light.
If you have a metal boat, try to place your zincs evenly throughout the hull. A zinc will perform only out to a certain radius. So often I see sportie boats with aluminum boats and all the zincs clustered across the transom. Look at a ship or steel barge out of water. The zincs are pretty evenly spaced for just that reason. I've hear that this does not apply as much to boats made of anodized aluminum. I have a hard time swallowing that, unless the aluminum has an insulating coating on it.
Good fishin
www.lurecharge.com
Bottom paint!!! I have a story.
The boat wasn't fishing worth a nickel. I was getting out fished by boats that shouldn't have been on the water and guys that didn't know the difference between a hoochie and a spoon. I checked and tried everything; spent hundreds of dollars on the phone with Malcom. Literally was on the back deck ready to cry. I went so far as to buy a new set of leads that I watch get poured from the purest lead available. Desperate people do desperate things.
A chance conversation with a buddy came to a conclusion that it must be the bottom paint. So I did my research. Turns our there are two types of bottom paints, both have similar concentration of cuprous oxide. The copper in the paint kills the critters and reacts with the zincs, i.e. more hull potential, bigger electrical footprint in the water, fish can find you better. One type is a sluffing paint (like Trinidad Pro) and the other is a hard bonding paint (like Ameron's ABC). The hard fouling paint is great for hull speed, but the polymers insulate the copper until it is activated by contact with water (functionally isolating the hull potential of the boat) and the copper is not evenly distributed throughout the hull. Guess which one I was using.
When I just bought the boat I let the shipyard talk me into the ABC, not knowing squat about a steel boat at the time. Over time and many multiples of new ABC coatings, I functional inhibited the nature hull potential. All the wire and hull potential readings were dead on, there weren't enough ions trailing the paint. I basically had the same electrical profile as 16 foot sport boat.
I pulled the boat out of the water, hard sanded down to barrier coat, and slapped on three coats of Trinidad Pro with 60% cuprous oxide. First tack was for 44!!! Up to that point, I probably hadn't caught 44 for the first month of the season. It ended up being a 100+ day.
Turns out the old sluffing bottom paint always has copper active throughout the hull, but not evenly. What I learned from a chemist at Trinidad paints (the technical service rep couldn't answer my questions so he plugged me into a research chemist) was the copper falls out of solution very quickly. You have to stir vigorously every time you pour into the paint tray, and not with a paint stick. Use a drill with a paint stir. And, for a troller's or tuna fisherman's application, ALWAYS, use the bottom of the paint can on the back of the boat. The bottom of the can will always have the highest concentration of copper.
This is not an advertisement for Trinidad. Any sluffing paint will do. Anything over 30% cuprous oxide is over kill. But what the hell, more is better right?
Lesson Learned: Don't use the new high tech paints. They do what they're designed to do. But, ain't worth a nickel for a salmon boat.
One more comment. You are dead right about not painting the rudder. Other than the engine (which is your ground), the rudder is the biggest piece of metal and the single biggest active surface in the water. Use it to catch more fish.
lcharge
2017-03-30 15:18:40
Great story and makes the point. My only argument might be that unless there is enough copper in the paint to allow voltage to pass through it (conductive), the zincs will not interact much with the paint. What happens is that any metal that has an oxide derivitive (iron oxide, aluminum oxide, copper oxide) will possess both anode as well as cathode. When these metals are placed in the right environment, corrosion occurs resulting in a voltage being created. A plain piece most any metal will corrode (pitting) and generate a voltage field when placed in a wet and oxygen rich environment. One exception being gold which does not have an oxide derivitive.
I believe that a higher concentration of copper paint near the stern will naturally give off more of a voltage field than areas with lesser copper content. If I am right, the paint itself will give off a small voltage field as the copper oxidizes. The results may be the same as yours, just the process is different.
The zincs being close to a more noble metal doesn't create a voltage producing cell. I proved this by placing highly reactive magnesium close to noble metals and in sea water, for up to 2 weeks and with no reaction. The magnesium only reacted when contact was made with the noble metal.
To get across just how sensitive fish can be, here is one of my favorite research articles. Hard to believe somebody figured this out 100 years ago. They don't say what type of metal was used, but it still makes the point. I assume that it was a single element like iron.
Brian L. Keeley. Philosophy/Neuroscience/Psychology Program, Washington University
By the turn of the century, some began to suspect that, in addition to the ability to generate electricity, some animals could detect the presence of electricity in their environment. The electrosensory hypothesis gained credibility in 1917 when Parker and van Heusen discovered that non-bioelectrogenic catfish could detect galvanic and direct currents. They did so through a series of experiments in which they presented blindfolded catfish with glass, wood & metal rods. The fish were able to detect the presence of metallic rods, but only reacted to the glass and wooden rods when they touched the surface of the fish. They went on to show that the type of behavior (to flee from or to approach and "nibble" at the metallic rod), elicited by the presentation of rods could be modulated by changing the length of rod exposed to the water. Parker and van Heusen correlated the amount of exposed metal with the amount of galvanic current produced by the rods, and then reproduced the behavioral results using direct electrical currents presented via electrodes placed in the aquaria with the catfish.
They go on to say: Notably, they do not posit an electroreceptive modality. Rather they propose that electric detection is mediated by the gustatory system, more specifically, by the taste buds. Their reasoning was that, electrical stimulation elicits feeding responses and these behaviours are typically mediated by the gustatory system. The head of the catfish is the most sensitive to stimulation, and most taste buds are found in the head, and “This assumption is completely in line with what has been known of human taste organs. For these are easily stimulated by direct currents of very low energy value”.
You missed the point. The copper does not interact, to any large degree, with the zincs. The copper ions are sluffed off as the paint works plus the forward motion of the boat knocks them off. The boat's ion cloud is what the fish sense with their lateral line. Copper (which is relatively highly charged; +2 electrons) from the paint is one source of ions (also called charged particles in the world of physics). The zincs sacrificing to dis-similar metal is the primary source. Again, rudder is big surface for zincs to work against creating more ions.
Obviously, the bigger the ion cloud the higher potential salmon and tuna will find your boat. It doesn't make them bite. It just gets them closed enough you can do something about it. That's why they call it fishin and not catchin.
lcharge
2017-04-18 18:23:26
You call it "sluffing", I call it "reduction and oxidation" (REDOX). Same language, different dialect. As far as the voltage not making them bite, this guy (below) thinks otherwise. As indicated by the last paragraph, us humans are effected as well, ..... though I don't recall getting hungry during an electrical storm.
Scientists seem to have nailed down the electroreceptive organs in sharks and rays as being Ampullae of Lorenzi, but have yet to have a consensus on salmon and others, but believe that the receptors are also within the fishes heads and may be an extension of lateral line hairs.
Brian L. Keeley. Philosophy/Neuroscience/Psychology Program, Washington University
By the turn of the century, some began to suspect that, in addition to the ability to generate electricity, some animals could detect the presence of electricity in their environment. The electrosensory hypothesis gained credibility in 1917 when Parker and van Heusen discovered that non-bioelectrogenic catfish could detect galvanic and direct currents. They did so through a series of experiments in which they presented blindfolded catfish with glass, wood & metal rods. The fish were able to detect the presence of metallic rods, but only reacted to the glass and wooden rods when they touched the surface of the fish. They went on to show that the type of behavior (to flee from or to approach and "nibble" at the metallic rod, elicited by the presentation of rods could be modulated by changing the length of rod exposed to the water. Parker and van Heusen correlated the amount of exposed metal with the amount of galvanic current produced by the rods, and then reproduced the behavioral results using direct electrical currents presented via electrodes placed in the aquaria with the catfish.
They go on to say: Notably, they do not posit an electroreceptive modality. Rather they propose that electric detection is mediated by the gustatory system, more specifically, by the taste buds. Their reasoning was that, electrical stimulation elicits feeding responses and these behaviours are typically mediated by the gustatory system. The head of the catfish is the most sensitive to stimulation, and most taste buds are found in the head, and “This assumption is completely in line with what has been known of human taste organs. For these are easily stimulated by direct currents of very low energy value”.
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