Trolling wire voltage testing.
lcharge
2016-01-14 23:59:23
Hi all. I trolled for years and always thought I was checking my line voltage correctly. I would lower a line in the salt chuck, use my digital meter on 2 volts dc, attach the negative probe to the bonding system and the positive probe to the trolling wire. Voila, a reading of .6 volts (for example). All good, right? Sadly this is wrong. When you test in this manner, all you are doing is getting a reading of a potential. Think of it like checking your car battery. Sure there is a reading, but there is no current flowing except for the circuit that goes through your meter. When you remove the meter, there is nothing, otherwise your car battery would go dead in time. The following is the method that I have come to rely on.
1- cut a piece of stainless test wire off of your gurdy, or have an identical 2 ft piece handy (without brass markers).
2- disconnect your black box, if you have one, from the gurdy .
3- lower a cannonball and wire a few feet into the water, preferably away from other boats.
4- connect the negative probe to the gurdy wire above the water (if you don't have alligator clips, use rubber gloves to eliminate body voltage).
5- connect the positive probe to the 2 ft piece and dip it a few inches in the water a foot or 2 away from the gurdy wire. What you see on the meter is what a fish will see. Chances are that the reading will be very low. Especially if your gurdy isolation is good and the cannonball is not electrically connected to the wire i.e. gangion twine is good. You should see a small increase if you let out more wire and any brass markers enter the water.
If you want to confirm this and you also have a black box, do the following.
A- hook your black box wire back up to the gurdy and turn it on to a .5 volts setting.
B- test the voltage in the water again in the same manner. Now you should see some voltage a foot or 2 away. It should be fairly close to what the black box setting is.
What I am getting at is that you .... I ... have all been convinced over the years that we did have proper voltage when in fact, without a black box, we had virtually nothing. In some cases we may have even been giving off a negative voltage field. I know this is going to raise some eyebrows and skepticism, all I ask is for you to do the test and think about what you are seeing. If you have natural voltage, then you should be able to see it just the same as with a black box.
I test in another manner as backup. *** Any metals that give off, or possess voltage also retain residual voltage which decreases over a short period of time. Kinda like magnetizing a screw driver except that the voltage will disappear within an hour. I remove the metal from the circuit and quickly test the voltage in a separate container with an identical, 'zero voltage metal' and watch the meter as the residual voltage dissipates. Trolling wire that has a 'potential' voltage reading, has zero 'residual' voltage reading when tested in this manner. Trolling wire that has had applied voltage from a black box does have residual voltage for several minutes.
Comments and questions welcome. Al
Once and Future
2016-01-18 00:28:39
Icharge: You may be on to something here with your new method of testing. I need to think about it some more and let it sink in.
However, I'm confident your comparison of the "standard" testing method to testing a car battery is incorrect. They are not the same, as a battery in a car sitting on rubber tires on dry land has no perceptible natural current flow to the earth. A boat, in intimate contact with salt water over a large surface area, and sporting dissimilar metals, DOES have perceptible current flow to earth. So, it is two different things. The reason a car battery usually does not go dead over time is that there is no leakage current. You are correct that a connected voltage meter is the only path for current flow.
By design the resistance of the voltmeter is very high. If you left the voltmeter connected in an experiment to see how long it would take to drain the battery, I'm guessing it would take a couple months. On the other hand, a boat in saltwater (electrolyte) IS A BATTERY. Instead of 12v potential like a car battery, the accidentally created voltage is +.6 volts measured from the boat's trolling wire to the ocean. Even if your boat's batteries are completely dead, you will record some voltage with respect to the ocean, due to the boat's status as dissimilar metals in electrolyte. Leave a volt meter connected to a submerged wire for a year, if you like. It will still be recording some voltage when you return. This "battery" will not go dead until the boat eventually dissolves in the water, due to the huge mass of the entire boat in the ocean. There IS a constant current flow between the boat and the ocean, even with the voltmeter disconnected.
But you still may be on to something. At first blush, though, a fish in the water has much more surface area than a 2 foot chunk of trolling wire. Thus, the fish is better "grounded". What would the reading be if your reference wire in the ocean was 20' long instead of 2?
Until I think about this more, I would still say the standard method we use of checking our boats is a useful reference which reveals if something is seriously out of whack, such as a hot wire in contact with something it shouldn't be, or a broken bonding jumper.
gchuba
2016-01-18 03:26:38
I am out of my element for contributing but I am installing davits on my boat. Does the davit material play a role in the wire current? I know type III anodizing leaves the aluminum non conductive (maybe type II and other but I never had that done so never inquired). Would a non conductive davit have an affect on the current? Thanks.
Garris
lcharge
2016-01-18 04:24:49
Thanks for the response. All good arguments. The reasons I use a 2 ft piece of stainless wire is only as an extension of my meter probe as well as to have an identical material as the trolling wire. I will often have several and will bundle them and set them in the test water for 15 minutes so they will equalize before performing tests. They should be matched metals and if you had a piece attached to both probes and touched them into the water, there should be little voltage. Basically starting with a zero base line. In that way I am not introducing any additional metals into the equation i.e. a nickel plated brass probe. Try it in fresh or salt water in a plastic dish. Use a stainless spoon connected to one probe and either just the probe or another metal on the other. Dip in water and you will see a 'voltage potential' with dissimilar metals. They will not create a battery (except for very minute readings). Now that you have 2 metals in the test water toss in a galvanized nail and touch it with one of the metal probe extension metals. Now the meter will jump. Remove the nail and test again. You will see the residual voltage as it dissipates.
My reference to a car battery is a bit different because in a boat it is actually based on a 'corrosion' cell as opposed to a 'voltaic' or similar battery cell. Just like my line of lures that give off voltage. No contact between base metal results in no voltage. I have done many tests. Some over a 2 week period where I have simulated a boat's bonding system. The only time that there was any significant corrosion evident was when the metals were in contact with each other. This includes anodes of magnesium which are very reactive in salt water. NOTE: Voltage is a by-product of corrosion. Or vice versa, depending on your view.
I do not have sensitive equipment that can read a low voltage field radiating from the cells that I create. I have to be creative in order to confirm my findings. I often use a second digital meter. In one instance I simulated a boat's bonding system complete with metals representing a stainless shaft, copper cooling pipes, and optional aluminum, brass etc. Also included in this was a 1.5 volt battery and a clock in order to simulate a boat's battery system with the ground connected to the main bonding wire. I used an isolated stainless wire beside the arrangement to represent trolling wire. I used a second meter set on 200mv with stainless wire probe extensions placed near or around, but not in contact with the assembly. This doesn't give any significant readings other than to see a voltage field surge. With that all in place I dipped the simulated trolling wire into the water connected to the first meter and to the bonding wire. The reading was in the .6 volt range but the second meter would not fluctuate until I shorted the trolling wire to the bonding system.
When I test any of my spoons, hoochies or attachments, I always use an identical hook as an extension of my meter probe. Once again starting with a zero base line in order to get accurate readings.
When I first started this, I set up a 30 ft test trough and tested both fresh and salt water. The results were that in fresh water, a lure's voltage would drop off about 30% for every 10 ft of separation. In salt water, the voltage didn't drop 5% over the entire 30 ft. Saying that, voltage from one side of the boat will have a measurable voltage field around all you lures, including the back pig lines. Especially after finding out how strong the field can be in salt water. Malcolm Russell (Russell Black Box) told me that he tested in FRESH WATER and found small but measurable voltage 300 ft away. This will obviously vary with the salinity (mineral content) of the water. I briefly did water temperature tests as well and it seemed that warm water was slightly more conductive than cold.
Here is another simple test. Take 2 plastic dishes with salt water in them. Place an identical stainless wire (2 inches long) on the bottom of each dish. Take 2 galvanized nails and place one a couple of inches away from the one stainless wire and the second one laying over top of the second wire. Watch what happens over the period of a week. The ones in contact will bubble within minutes and second should do just about nothing as long as the galvanized coating was complete with no bare steel exposed. This gets me back to the battery. A corrosion cell needs contact between elements in order to generate any significant voltage. Your stainless trolling line (cathode) will be it's own corrosion cell with brass markers/stoppers (anodes). It will give off very low voltage because most stainless and brass are not far enough apart from each other on the galvanic scale. I actually use stainless and nickel as one half of my lure cells and a zinc alloy as the other half. This gives me .6 volts plus. I started out working with .5 - .55 for chinook, but it wasn't enough. I think it may have something to do with amperage but I had to get it higher. Once I did, 80% of the fish will take a 'tuned' lure over a plain identical one trolled 16ft apart. I think the % is higher with more separation because of the field radius. I only sports fish now (retired troller) and have never tested this on a commercial boat where there is already a voltage field. I have had several customers tell me that when anchovies or herring wouldn't work, my lures did. Without question!
And you are right. A boat's metals and bonding system is a battery. And don't dare leave any metals out of your bonding system. I believe that it is the boat that attracts or repels the fish as opposed to the wire. My first troller wouldn't fish sockeye to save my life when I bought it. It did the next season.
lcharge
2016-01-18 04:51:16
Garris
Hi Garris
I was always a firm believer in gurdy, and davit isolation by using nylon blocks, bolts and pads. Also having all metals including above water ones like headache rack, stay wires, anchor, davits, electronics, etc nicely connected to your adequate bonding wire. I don't think there will be any difference whether you use aluminum or galvanized, insulated coating or not. Metals will only interact with each other when there is conductivity between them and in an electrolyte (water). Sure you can get salt soaked wood and some leakage may occur. Focus on fresh water cleanings and spend extra time bonding absolutely everything you can, and cleaning the connections often. I see the isolation of wires more to prevent negative voltage fields repelling fish as opposed to positive line voltage attracting fish. I believe the boat is the attractant. Have you ever seen a big steel troller that wasn't 'fishy'. That's because they have such a strong voltage field radiating from the hull. The exceptions are poor bonding or stray electricity that can always ruin any boat.
gchuba
2016-01-18 06:12:42
Thank you.
Scotthmt
2016-01-18 06:44:01
The wire over the back to the bonding system method is for hull potential which is relative to wire voltage while trolling. what I've seen and what I've bothered Malcolm about is that hull potential will be slightly higher at the dock over the back of the boat at the dock, a bit less with the boat in gear, and wire voltage will be less than those while trolling. Just because you've driven your wire voltage to the proper reading doesn't mean you'll catch, you need that along with the right hull potential to make it all work together. Or maybe you need to do a voodoo salmon dance?
One interesting thing I saw happen this year was one side of the boat was catching 85% of the fish for 6-7 trips, running same gear same depths blah blah all the same. Leads checked out, no leaks etc. one day my buddy beside me doubled my score in 2 hours when I had 4x as many as him in the first part of the day, something was wrong. Then I noticed the trim tab zincs, the side that had been catching was wearing properly, the side that had not been was covered in growth and had not been wearing at all. When I replaced the zincs in the water I didn't scrub the tabs to get clean metal because the boat was in the water and it was tough to do. Once I changed the zincs back out, cleaned the tabs, both sides went back to normal. Call me crazy I believe it. Goddamn voodoo.
gchuba
2016-01-18 14:25:28
So it looks like grounding to dedicated zincs vs. battery negative. Similar to the metal jackets for instrument wire.
Garris
lcharge
2016-01-18 16:06:30
Here are 2 scenarios that have a direct relation to boat bonding.
1 - Three yrs ago I was doing a display at the BC Boat and Sportsman show. I had my little MacGyver setup where I was using 3 of my sportie Downrigger Field Generators (portable black box) in separate plastic containers with water. Basically they were individual battery cells in series powering my alarm clock. The combined voltage started out as just over 2 volts. By the end of each day I was changing out the water as the voltage lowered down below 1.4 volts. The reduction is caused by electron saturation of the electrolyte. There may have been a small amount of corrosion buildup as well. Once the water was swapped out the voltage returned to it's high level. The same thing might happen on a boat. Flowing water (electrolyte) will do away with this electron saturation issue. So, a moving boat will be different from a stationary one.
2 - I sent some of my original anodes to a friend in Ontario who agreed to try them while ice fishing for perch on Lake Superior. Him and 5 pals bore 6 holes in the ice in a circle (not sure on the distance spread). My buddy thought he knew more about my stuff than I did and spread the anode away from his hook and minnow setup (cathode). Instead of attaching the anode directly to the nickel plated hook, he used it like a split shot and placed it up the line by 2 ft.
For the first half of the day he caught virtually nothing and the guys on either side of him also did poorer than the other 3 that were furthest away. Around mid day he removed the anode and everyone's catches returned to equal. After talking to him, he decided to try it my way. The next time out his catch rate was equal to but not better than anyone else (requires more testing).
That was in my first year with anodes that had to be physically attached with either copper or zinc coated attaching wires(different voltages). We have not tried it since I went to a wireless system. I don't think my system works as well with lures or setups that don't have enough mass (small hooks or tiny lures). What I learned is extremely important. If the metals involved are not of the right material and/or not connected in the right manner, some fish will be repelled by the voltage field generated. I am a firm believer that this applies to your boat and it's bonding system.
RESPONSE to GARRIS . A boat's bonding system should never be just the battery ground. Even though they are connected. Malcolm will agree. Use a good quality, larger size, low impedance wire for basically the full length of the bilge. One of the best wires is welding cable which is fine strand, high quality wire. This may be overkill for some boats, but you get the idea. Use size 10 wire from the main bonding wire to each metal to be bonded and solder where you can (don't forget radio casings and anchor winches etc). Connect all underwater metal components to this main bonding wire. Never leave anything out whether it is zinc protected or not. I don't assume to know all the answers and don't have a troller anymore to test with. Al
Icharge, you really challenge the brain cells. I haven't thought about voltage for several months. Going back to the original post, your first measurement describes hull potential measurements and your second (with the segments of wire) measurement is of the wire. They are totally different measurements, both important, have distinctly different impacts on the boat's catchablity (if that's a word).
It's really hard to wrap one's head around what is happening electrically in the water and how or why the fish are attracted or not. Here's the simplest explanation I use: HULL POTENTIAL attracts predatory fish (salmon, tuna, rock fish) to the boat. WIRE POTENTIAL or voltage makes them strike.
Hull potential is a function of the boat's dissimilar metals, whether they're in the water or not, and the voltage they create. The higher the voltage the greater the fish attraction to a point. The range is .6-1.0 volts with a target of .8 volts.
Wire voltage or potential is a function of the voltage "carried" through the wire. If there's a black box, the voltage can be accurately managed. If not, the voltage can still be managed, but not as accurately. For instance, line zincs will lower the wire potential, length of the breakaways will increase or decrease wire potential, brass breakaways increase line potential, purity and clean leads effect wire potential. The wire voltage is the toughest part of the equation because the smallest thing can change its potential. But, when it's dialed in, it's money in the bank. Unfortunately, there is allot of experimenting to get everything right.
Garris, davit material is not a major consideration. Generally, nylon blocks will isolate the troll wire from the boat. I've taken it to extremes by using heat shrink around the davit which isolates the block clamps from the boat. But in the final analysis, it made very little difference if any.
Best advise is go with the least expensive option as long as it has the strength to hold up to crab pots, kelp, and whatever else wants to rip your gurdies off the boat
lcharge
2016-01-18 20:46:51
Yes, there are too many variables for me to figure out in my lifetime. Even with my lures and accessories, all I try to do is hit a window of fish attraction.
I can't recall how many nights I stayed up to remove, clean and re-sikaflex my gurdies. All because someone got lucky and caught 3 more fish that day than I did. We can be our own worst enemies at times. LOL
I work on the premise that voltage potential and actual voltage with a circuit and voltage flowing, are 2 entirely different things. I would really like someone to take the time and do a test as in my original post. Just make sure that you do them in the listed order. Otherwise, if you reverse the order, you may have some residual voltage giving a false reading.
If you think about it,
2- disconnect your black box wire from the gurdy, if you have one.
3- lower a cannonball and wire a few feet into the water, preferably away from other boats.
*** Test wire potential with negative probe to bonding system and positive probe to wire above the water. It should read in the .6 volt range, give or take.
4- connect the negative probe to the gurdy wire above the water (if you don't have alligator clips, use rubber gloves to eliminate body voltage).
5- connect the positive probe to the 2 ft piece and dip it a few inches in the water a foot or 2 away from the gurdy wire. What you see on the meter is what a fish will see. Chances are that the reading will be very low. Especially if your gurdy isolation is good and the cannonball is not electrically connected to the wire i.e. gangion twine is good. You should see a small increase if you let out more wire (cathode) and any brass markers (anodes) enter the water.
If you want to confirm this and you also have a black box, do the following.
A- hook your black box wire back up to the gurdy and turn it on to a .5 volts setting, or whatever you want. Crank it up , crank it down.
B- test the voltage in the water again in the same manner. Now you should see some voltage a foot or 2 away. It should be fairly close to what the black box setting is.
Once and Future
2016-01-18 22:30:35
Icharge: I am trying to follow you, but I am getting lost with too much information between the boat and the experimental dishes. So let me just try to understand the boat portion. I am willing to concede there will be more current flow between the wire and the ocean with the black box turned on.
First question: Why do you think it is important to actually disconnect the black box wire from the gurdy, rather than just switch the black box power off?
Second question: We all have been measuring the voltage on our wire with respect to our rudder post. We all assume that the rudder post is the same voltage as the ocean, and that we have a bonding system on the boat that helps insure no other stray voltage. So, why do you think it is important to simulate a fish near the wire as the measuring point, rather than the ocean itself? To me, the fish in the ocean is going to be the same voltage as the ocean. Or, judging by your 300' away comment, do you feel there are different voltages at different points of the ocean? And is the point you are trying to make that the black box is changing the voltage of the salt water in an area near the wire?
Scotthmt
2016-01-19 01:52:58
The way Malcolm explained it to me you want a hull potential of mid to low .8 and a wire voltage of high 7 to low 8, and drive it down to mid 5's (for kings). He then started on ion field and lost me but I just do whatever he says anyhow. I have swapped zincs to alum on some areas and while I have a mid 8 hull potential my nat wire voltage while trolling is in upper 6's. I probably could change one more zinc to alum but the boat catches and I am done messing with it. If I had a hull potential of .6 I would have a wire voltage too low, would still catch but not as well. Your mileage may vary.
gchuba
2016-01-19 02:57:50
For what it is worth.......when plumbing dissimilar metals a dielectric union is recommended. I have found that the current jumps from copper to galvanized despite the thickness of the plastic washer in the union. A 6" brass nipple or 6" of brass valve with nipple will prevent the electrolysis. I do not know how this may apply or integrated with what is discussed but possibly its application may help.
Garris
lcharge
2016-01-19 03:14:54
I am trying to follow you, but I am getting lost with too much information between the boat and the experimental dishes. So let me just try to understand the boat portion. I am willing to concede there will be more current flow between the wire and the ocean with the black box turned on.
First question: Why do you think it is important to actually disconnect the black box wire from the gurdy, rather than just switch the black box power off?
Second question: We all have been measuring the voltage on our wire with respect to our rudder post. We all assume that the rudder post is the same voltage as the ocean, and that we have a bonding system on the boat that helps insure no other stray voltage.
So, why do you think it is important to simulate a fish near the wire as the measuring point, rather than the ocean itself? To me, the fish in the ocean is going to be the same voltage as the ocean.
Judging by your 300' away comment, do you feel there are different voltages at different points of the ocean? And is the point you are trying to make that the black box is changing the voltage of the salt water in an area near the wire?
The Black Box does create a positive, fish attracting voltage field top to bottom and will radiate a very long way. My purpose in starting this is to prove or disprove whether what you think is 'natural' line voltage in effect does exist without a black box. I don't think you have that top to bottom voltage, only the promise of a potential reading. My test should tell the honest truth.
Clear as mud???
Once and Future
2016-01-19 04:31:46
Icharge: OK, I am following better, but you are using some terms that are throwing me off. In another post, someone else asked for somebody with a PhD in electricity to explain things for us. The PhD has not showed up yet. So, I am 4 orders of magnitude down on the pecking order with my trade school diploma in an electrical program. All I have to offer is that I am willing to chime in here (unlike those PhD guys) and I was studying at a low enough level that I actually understood close to 100% of what they were throwing at me.
So here are the terms that are flummoxing me:
"Potential Voltage." In electricity, "voltage" and "potential" mean one and the same thing. They represent a force where electricity wants to flow, given a path. So saying "potential voltage" does not mean what you think it means.
"Voltage Flow." Voltage cannot flow. Current can flow. Current is measured in amps. Voltage represents the "potential" for current to flow, once a path appears. So, for example, consider a car battery sitting on a concrete floor, not connected to anything. You can measure 12 volts across the terminals. Now connect a car headlight across the terminals. Current flows, but for all intents and purposes, you could still measure 12 volts across the battery terminals, because the voltage does not flow anywhere. The voltage is merely the "force" that causes the current to flow.
Another way to try and explain the difference between voltage (potential) and current (amps) just occurred to me yesterday. Any heat generated by a current flow comes as a byproduct of the amps flowing. IE: The car battery with nothing attached to it generates no heat. But once the headlight and conductors give a path for current flow, you will get heat as a by-product.
"Electrical Field". I understand that a wire in the water, with a voltage on it, will be pumping current into the surrounding water. But, I don't think that can properly be called an "electrical field". I think if you look in electrical textbooks, you will see the term "magnetic field" used. I don't think you will find "electrical field". That is because (I think) that if electricity is flowing, there is a "circuit" not a "field". What happens along the length of a charged wire with current flowing to the wire is there is an electrical "sink" that is spread over a larger area than a specific contact point. If a fish swims near the charged wire, electricity will flow through the fish as well, since the fish is "of" the water. And the fish will become part of the electrical circuit. It will probably sense this through its lateral line. And either like it, or not.
Icharge, I hope you do not think I am belittling your theory because I have a different definition of terms than you do. I am just trying to compare what you say to what I know, so we can understand each other better. You may very well understand something about electrical interaction in the water that I do not. As a side note, I always thought that gold was the best electrical conductor. They even put it on the ends of fancy antenna wires. But when I was looking up the conductivity of salt water vs. fresh water vs. copper, I found out that silver is actually the best conductor of electricity. So I had the wrong idea all these years.
The last question is whether anyone else here on this site cares about what you and I are discussing? :)
lcharge
2016-01-20 00:25:43
Dear Flummoxed
-I appreciate your sense of humor. I am trying to put things in terms that all fishermen will be able to understand, regardless of their level of schooling.
-Perhaps voltage doesn't actually flow, but 'flow of electrons' somehow sounds familiar.
-Electric potential that I am portraying is "the measurable voltage available if a circuit was completed".
-Gold is higher on the galvanic scale than silver. If you connect gold and beryllium in salt water, you will have a corrosion cell that generates about 1.85 volts.
- Add that to the memory archives for future use.
:lol:
Tempo
2016-01-20 02:35:30
Thanks for the great thread,
I would like to throw in a few cents and ask some questions to the group:
First, there's more to electromagnetics than voltage and current. Any AC (including a AC tachometer) broadcasts an electromagnetic signal. This means your hull voltage can jump around if AC wiring gets too near unshielded DC wires. My Magnum Energy inverter/charger installation manual recommends at least 1 foot distance between all AC and DC wires. It also says if DC and AC must cross, do this at a 90 degree angle. Digital signals function similar to AC in that their signals constantly vary from off to on. Network cables and other digital wires send and receive signals using twist pairs of wires to minimize this electromagnetic interference. In data wiring these effects are call crosstalk or collisions and cause information to have to be resent. Speaker wires are also a form of AC and should be separate from DC systems as well. Why do I bring all this up? . Here comes my fisherman's voodoo theory: Voltage and current numbers are important, but so is being 'electromagnetic-ly quiet' (or 'electromagnetic-ly constant' since living creatures mostly perceive based on changes to sensations and not the sensation itself). For example, if a school is following your boat but your vhf radio spikes your hull voltage everytime you transmit because your antenna wire isn't shielded as it passes by DC wiring, you might spook the fish away since they hear/feel a 'disturbance in the force'.
Second: Rod Schiewe, Newport's electronics guru, gave me some best-practices advice as I started rewiring my boat. He warned me about ground loops. The concept is that any wire in a loop will collect a radio frequency equivalent to the size of that loop (via electrical Induction). Hence why different broadcast frequencies require different antenna sizes e.g. a 2 meter radio. Rod said he has improved countless tuna boats' fishing by cutting excess bonding wires. For example, connecting all the thru-holes in a a big loop back to the engine block instead of branches that terminate at a thru-hole. Rod said it is okay to daisy chain (run in series) grounding wires to fuel tanks, thru-holes, etc. but don't close the circuit and create an antenna loop. This can also be done accidentally by linking foil shields wrong. One fisherman mentioned Rod's ground loop work was very testable on the tuna grounds. He claimed he could turn off and back on the bite by temporarily reconnecting an extra ground wire he had on a breaker box.
Third: you probably have seen the pattern iron filings make when sprinkled around a bar magnet. While voltage is an easily measured number, it does not describe the shape of the field around the boat. I. E. A properly bonded boat creates an electromagnetic field that polarizes at the cathodes and the anodes. If one side is catching and the other is not, the field's intensity might not be balanced. One question I have is: Has anyone experimented with anode/cathode placement? For example, spreading zinc around the boat verses putting most near the stern. Several boats I saw hauled out in Oregon took the paint off most of their rudder to make it more of the primary cathode. I also saw a few boats with copper wire running the length of the keel to spread out the cathodes and anodes. 'Not sure which idea catches more fish. Mine are pretty spread out.
Fourth: Besides corrosion, Bonding also limits the effects of static electricity. One experience I have had with it is: I was on anchor, stabilizers on deck and noticed all my LED lighting flickering to the beat of the rigging swinging in the wind. when I went outside I could see a tiny spark everytime my stabilizer wire bumped my rigging. The wire was isolated by a short piece of polyester line and electrostatic arc was shocking my ground enough to momentarily change my system voltage enough to flicker my LED lights (which have a voltage tolerance from 9 to 30 volts). I would like to run some experiments like this with gear in the water and see what static electricity does to the troll/hull line voltage.
~ Casey
Once and Future
2016-01-20 03:41:11
Casey: Pretty neat deal with the static and the LEDs. Also, did you know we pretty much beat out our brains on the topic of voltage on boats last winter? Go find page 4 in Troller Talk and look at the "Line Voltage vs. Hull Voltage" thread. There is enough discussion of electrical theories there to make you want to bang your head against a wall.
lcharge
2016-01-20 14:42:41
And then we had the odd old timer who said "Aaaaaagh I don't believe in any of that crap" and he goes out without any gurdy isolation or Fluke meter and ends up waxing your butt!!!! :roll:
As far as inverters, all I can say is by-pass the cheapies and get one that has the purest sine wave. It will be nicer on any your electronics.
I have yet to see a large steel boat that didn't fish well. They give off the greatest voltage field. Big area and spread out zincs.
SHORT STORY: On one of my smaller trollers (40 ft) after the season, I decided to replace my wooden mast with an aluminum one. I did that, but started to notice my storage batteries going down. I took on a winter silvaculture charter with a father and son team. I had lots of time to work on stuff. I finally nailed it down to a dish style tv antenna that had been wired backwards by the previous boat owner. It was fine on the wooden mast but when I attached it to the aluminum cross tree, the voltage trickle (.6 amps) was involving my stay wires and the entire bonding system. I was glad to fix that before fishing time. Maybe I should have tried it first. Maybe the voltage potential would have turned into payday potential!!! :mrgreen:
I would still like for someone with a black box to try out and test my theory. It won't matter to black box users if the use them continuously, but it will matter to those who rely on what they think is 'natural line voltage'. Cheers Al
gchuba
2016-01-24 16:42:23
I had to sit down and take notes for all what was said in this discussion. I hope I understand the concepts for practical application.
1. The principles are those of a "Cathodic Protection System" where the anodes (zincs, etc...) are the sacrificial pieces submerged in the same electrolyte (water) as the cathodes (through hull fittings). The science of the same bonding system acting as an anode and cathode at the same time boggles my mind.
2. The looping and parallel runs of various wires has a definite affect on this principle.
3. The measurement and of the boats "field" is independent but is affected (and has an affect on) the gurdie wire (as another through hull fitting when deployed).
4. Any non bonded metal has an affect on the boats field (field is possibly a poor choice of a word but makes sense to me)
5. Fish are attracted to a specific charge (may be debatable, but not by me in this discussion) but fluctuations and certain negative "fields" are a definite deterrent.
I hope I have this correct. So.....in my application of these principles in setting up a gurdie/outrigger system on a my virgin (right....like we can truly find a virgin anything....why just my stepping on board ruins....) hull.
All metals get bonded together and become part of the Cathodic Protection System with the dedicated anodes all part of a "Daisy Chain". Dissimilar metals (example: copper to steel, connection to zincs, etc...) of this system should be recognized and accessible for maintenance. Definite impact on the boats "field".
Care given to location and cross over of communication/speaker wires.
Gurdie wires independent of the bonding system and checked independently of the boats "field".
I have a question in that if the boats field emits a positive field do independent gurdy wires by themselves emit a negative field when in use. This question stems from downrigger use/advertisements where Cannons proclaim "positive ion" and the age old question comes up for Scotties "Do I need a black box" with stainless wire.
If my boat has a positive field can I attach my gurdy wire to the bonding system.
If I go "Back Box" it is independent of my bonding system (not including the power source). Now that I understand the importance. Any recommendations?
I have found this entire discussion rewarding and appreciate the contributions of all.
Garris
Once and Future
2016-01-25 01:43:31
Garris: the trouble with this subject is that there are so many details and theories that it rapidly gets too complicated for anyone to understand. I am not the ultimate expert. But what I try to contribute is to subtract concepts from the discussion that are more trouble than they are worth. Not being perfect, I welcome corrections if I state something wrong. Having said all that, here are a few responses to your post:
1) I do not think of the bonding system as being an anode and/or a cathode. To me, the bonding system is tying most of the metal pieces on the boat together with conductive material. This is important to insure dissimilar metals in contact with one another do not create a stray voltage due to the battery effect. The only anodes in the system are the zincs that are tied to exterior metal underwater. (I do not understand the concept of why some think it is also useful to have aluminum anodes.) So, a properly bonded system, with zincs attached, has a goal of showing zero voltage difference between the boat's metal and the ocean. The zincs diminish as they give up their electrons to bleed off whatever electrical charge inadvertently appears; and thus maintain a zero voltage difference. So at this point, we consider hull potential to be equal to ocean potential, and we find it convenient to measure that at the (bonded) rudder post. The hull should be neither positive nor negative with respect to the ocean. There is zero difference.
2) I agree with the concept that there should be no loops in the bonding system. The bonding system should be like the twigs and branches of a tree leading to the trunk.
3) OK, so let's say we have the boat properly bonded and and zincs are in place. But we have to put our stainless gurdy wires into the water to catch fish. Some observant fisherman who was smarter than me learned that he caught more fish if there was a slight positive charge on the gurdy wire. The only way to achieve that would be to isolate the gurdies from the bonding system. So most of us do that by insulating the mounting feet of the gurdies. Now, if you do that, then lower a cannon ball over the side off your gurdy, I predict you will be able to measure a voltage difference between the submerged wire and the rudder post. I have been told +.6 volts on the wire compared to the rudder post is good. I think Lulu recommends something a little higher. If guys find their own number is off a little bit, this is where they install the Russell Black Box and dial it in a little bit more.
4) Icharge is proposing a new voltage measurement that he feels is more telling. If I understand correctly, he suggests measuring between the gurdy wire and a bundle of stainless wire in the water a few feet away. I haven't tried that measurement because I am a long ways from my boat right now. Plus, I haven't been able to follow him completely on his theory.
Scotthmt
2016-01-25 03:59:53
I wouldn't worry about voltage too much in your first season, other factors will have a much bigger impact on how many fish you catch. I.e. Hook sizing, hoochie color, spread length, spoon type, troll speed for certain things, etc etc. just bond your boat, isolate the gurdies, take a voltage test and if it's within range just fish it.
gchuba
2016-01-25 05:22:59
I may very well be keeping my boat as a rod and reel craft the first year with the possibility of a single gurdy on starboard and port sides. As I do the installs I want to keep this electrical theoretical stuff present so I am not repeating myself. I am not swimming in funds or time and enjoy doing this sort of thing piecemeal. I had to really study what was being said. In simpler terms for my thinking: cathode = "+" of battery (and the "t" in the word cathode reminds me of the + sign), anode = "-" of battery("t" is missing). Bonding = all the metals of the boat plus the negative of the battery going to a sacrificial metal (zinc). My amazement comes from the fact that the negative of the battery as well as the connected bonded metals that go to the zinc in the water also act as a positive charge which is why the zinc disintegrates. The zinc (and for sake of definition) would be considered a metal alloy (along with magnesium, aluminum, and possibly others) with a more active voltage than the metal they are protecting and a more negative reduction potential (swallow-er/eater of electrons) and is of a material that dissolves easily (I believe the electrical dissolving term would be "positive electrochemical potential" that through osmosis dissolves). Those terms and concepts are foreign to me so....the zinc is a metal that breaks down easy to protect the electrical. Basically, to my understanding, a boat is a floating battery whose construction and wiring create a battery field that is negated by the zincs and the proper grounding of everything prevents sparks. Truly a concept I never delved into before. I always thought the battery(s) for starting the motor and running things was the only charge to worry about. Once and Future summed it up well with practical application. I brought up "electrolysis" with my plumbing with analogy with brass as the connector between copper and galvanized pipe to prevent corrosion. That in turn makes it a poor replacement for the zinc but a good connector for the connections when grounding/bonding dissimilar metals and wire leading to the zinc (nothing I read....just something I applied when attempting to understand the principles brought up in this discussion). My best to all.
Garris