for salty - Forums Archive

Salty

2008-04-28 16:24:30

Back to you yak,

I am thinking of going fishing today so I should keep this short. Briefly, you make a good point about not losing time in the middle of winter so people can fish in late April and May. I think we are protected from that because the quota year starts when the fishery opens in October. Any winter fish caught in late April are those not yet harvested in the winter fishery already going on.

I hear the old line about different sectors of the troll fleet advocating for a bigger piece of the pie. Every proposal I have ever supported adds value to the total troll harvest. I have never supported a proposal to reduce value as I calculated it. Some sectors benefit more from some proposals to add total value than others. It has always seemed to me that what adds total value usually ends up benefitting the whole fleet. When we had the big battle over internal allocation and set up the famed troll task force (which I made the motion on the ATA Board to form) some sectors of the fleet wanted the winter quota set at 24,000 kings.

The formula for the spring troll fishery which was amended a few years ago which I lobbied tirelessly for many years gives us much better flexibility and opportunity in the spring. I think it would be a good idea to be even more flexible in our fishery to better target markets such as Mothers day and the fourth of July.

I know you have some political problems getting any spring troll fishery in Yakutat but I believe you should persist. The fish are there, I suspect a troll fishery in Yakutat Bay would not catch an overly high percentage of Situk Kings, of which a % should go to the troll fishery any way.

It is kind of sad that we didn't catch more or these winter kings this year when they were worth $9-10 per lb. Think I will go catch a couple today though. Lots of depressed trollers around here this spring.

yak2you2

2008-04-29 01:27:22

Thanks for the comeback. Hope you filled the checkers today. It has been very dishearting to have the price without the fish to go along, but that's the age old story isn't it? I'm thinking of the summer of 88'.

There are still pockets of us fighting for changes here, but you keyed in on just the right word, politics. Half or more of the fights we have, are with each other. There is an ever growing number of people who want to put Yakutat under a glass dome. Wild to them means absolutly, unmanipulated, and un-utilized, if they can help it. It's what Dr Jekyl Conservation looks like when in it's Mr. Hyde form. For some reason, the rightful bad press associated with fish farming, has carried over to the notion of hatcheries around here, and no amount of pointing out sucess stories seems to do any good. Only now are they admitting that not setting up a hatchery was a mistake, but it's to little, to late. It would take so much time for results to be realized, that I honestly fear most will be out of buissness or moved away, if you got started today.One could pretty easily walk away with the feeling that starving out the indiginous was always the intent.

Unfortunately, lack of product, blooming sportfish industries, coupled with 21st century prices seems to be going exactly their way. It's a crying shame that so many who toughed out the industry crash, and made payments thru years of horrific price dumps, finally get to the up cycle of the market, only to be snuffed out by a 1,2 punch of lack of product and off planet expense increases.

Anyway, I have heard of you. and that your efforts for the industry have always been genuine, and I don't want to knock anyone's efforts to make things better for fisherman, I just felt like the dead of winter fishery needed a voice.

Salty

2008-05-01 21:25:47

Back from a fun three days. Not many, 25, but nice ones averaging 16 lbs. and nice to get $8.00 straight at Sitka Sound Seafoods this morning. Sure great to still be fishing the line on the last day of April. I hear there was a bite off of Yakobi. I hope so as it would be good to get as many of these kings in at these prices as possible. Fun to have a hootchie get hot. The same one that was hot in 1987.

How does the steelhead run look this year on the Situk? Maybe I will come up and visit my friend Geoff and exercise a couple. Last time I did that was the spring of 1974. Although I did come up a few years ago and catch a king on a sport rod in Yakutat Bay in April.

Time to go fix the deck hose.

yak2you2

2008-05-02 06:21:37

I'm glad you had a good time. I'm looking forward to going out with a rod and scaring up a couple of kings for my smoke house now that the season is closed. I've been dying to eat one of these kings for months now. We saw a really big average wt. up here too this spring. It's going to suck to go back to the usual little measurers next year. Where ever these ones have been, they've been eating just fine. Wouldn't want to share what hoochie was hitting for ya would you? :D

From what I hear the Steelhead run is pretty good this year, You should come visit. Geoff is doing well. I just talked to him a couple of days ago and he told me you have been friends for many years. I'm sure he would enjoy seeing you again.

Salty

2008-05-02 17:33:36

The Hootchie was the old C29CR Cuttlefish. It has been out of production for many years but one of my partners bought several hundred from around the coast while they were still available and doles them out as I need them. There are several imitations on the market which do not fish as well.

It is a blue green on top with chartruese on the sides and a clear belly. It fishes best with a red gumpucky for some reason. Sometimes when they are going for that color I run a 12 Tomic plug and a green and chartruese spoon with it. My first day over 100 kings was on that combination at Pt. Ellis during a hatchery opening.

Chinooks are such suckers for green and chartruese.

I hear what they like in Yakutat though is those little mother of pearl Luhr Jensen needlefish spoons behind a hot spot. I keep trying that around here and have yet to make it work. I even drug one around the other day during the bite to no avail. Maybe I have the wrong hook.

Can share this stuff because I figured it out. Can't share the secret stuff my partners figured out.

I also use green and chartruese yarn for steelhead. Sounds like fun.

yak2you2

2008-05-03 16:41:08

That's interesting. I've had pretty good luck up here with similar color schemes. Green and yellow does seem to appeal to them at times.I have a green & gold hoochie, 0118 Polaris Express that works real well for me in the summer months, but I can't get it to catch a thing in the winter. Likewise, the #5 M.O.P. needlefish behind a flasher does knock em out some winters, but I can't catch a thing on it past about the 1st. of March, not sure why. It's weird how different gear goes in an out of fashion so quickly.

Your not the first I've heard from S.E. that can't get the M.O.P to work for them. If I had to guess why the #5 M.O.P. needlefish, with a #6 hook doesn't work so well for you folks, I would guess it has to do with depth. From what i've been told you guys fish alot deeper down there than we do. I've heard that 40 to 60 fms. is kind of the normal drag down there, where as 20 to 30 fms. is up here. Some guys will go down to 40-60 fms., but they'll be right back up with the rest of us soon enough. Not sure why. Try running M.O.P. in november, and run it up a little higher on your wire, might work. I run some #6 M.O.P needlefish spoons by themselves and have good luck at times. If it's any consolation, I've been given some tackle by friends form S.E. over the years to try that they've had excellent catches with, won't catch a thing here, not sure why. I have noticed that different colors work better at different depths. I had better luck with a purple haze hoochie than I did with anything else this winter i guess. Picking colors is easy in the winter for me. I run white, Gold & Chrome, or herring. Once in a while i'll throw the odd colored plug in just for laughs.

I've fished my whole life. All of it as a gillnetter, amongst other things. About 15 yrs. ago I started hand trolling to help replace the money lost as our Dungy fishery dried up. Not long after I got married, had kids, and not long after that came the beach job to bring bennys and security. I work 4 on 4 off though, so I still get out there. I've considered bumping up to power troll, but i have a fast little boat so I can catch the tide after work, and power just wouldn't work for me right now. Plus, I've kind of perfected my game the way i do it, I wouldn't want to go through a whole new learning curve.I like getting back into the little holes in the reef that the power guys don't dare go into, works good for me at times. There's no where around here I can't fish, given the weather, and I'm not at all intimidated by going deep. I've cranked 200 ft. lots of times, I just don't see much down that deep. In the spring I get right up on top of the rock piles, some years I'll do better there than the power guys circling the reef.

Which brings me to a whole other topic I want to run by you. Being the old gillnetter that I am, I spend alot of time chasing sockeye around. I've read alot about the Canadians trolling sockeye, and having pretty good luck. So, a few years back, I rigged up some little 2 inch hoochies, pink, scrambled egg, green, and a few others, went right up into to sockeye country. Nothing. They were jumping all around the boat, no question I was on fish, just couldn't make it work. I gave up after a while, with my score at about a half a dozen. During cohos my incidental sockeye catch was about 3 or 4 for a decade, until 2 years ago. I was way offshore, on a slow day in late aug., and I had a canary yellow hoochie down about 50 ft. I caught a dozen sockeye on that rig, that day. 4 and a half inch yellow hoochie, same one i've pulled around on and off for years, one day a dozen. One day out of how many, I couldn't even guess. So, last year, I put the same hoochie on, and a few more smaller ones and went back up into sockeye country, nothing.

What galls me more than anything else is, I know they'll bite. 4 miles away from where I was exploring they go up the Situk where the sportys are wheeling em in on every ugly colored fly known to man. I've messed with my speed, depths, colors. Tried spoons. I used to think they were scared of my flashers, so I went to little 6"ers, all that went out on my dozen day anyway. They were not a bit intimidated by my 11" flasher.

What have I over looked? Do you know anything about sockeye trolling? I would like to hear feed back on this, it's about to turn into a holy grail thing for me. I've often thought it would be cool to have a little nitch market for a couple of slow weeks in July.

Hotspott

2008-05-03 18:50:06

Well, you might want to try loading up the lines with green hotpot flashers with the small red hoochies...and 1 -1 1/2 leaders and 1-1/2 markers on your wire (some guys use 1 fathom)...try putting at least 15 snaps on each line and troll a little slower. I assume this is the same setup you use for trolling humpies? Also, it is a good idea not to pull the first one you see on....wait till they start following the boat and all the lines are going....and don't turn when they are biting...if you can avoid it. They tend to come in bunches. Also, it seems that you get more fish trolling west. Give this a try and let me know how it works for you...can't see why you shouldn't be able to do okay.....though I have heard that some runs are better "biters" than others...but if nobody has really tried to catch them up there well....who's to say this won't work...I've always thought it would be great to troll sockeye in Bristol Bay..no?

yak2you2

2008-05-04 03:22:21

hotspot,

Thanks for the tips. All of them sound logical, I will try them out. Odd that you get em going west, is that with the current for you, or against? I guess my first question would be, where did you fish them at? is it only the Canadians who catch them, because i've never heard of an Alaska fishery for them. Which is the next question, did you catch enough to make it worth your time? and, did you have any luck getting anybody to give you a troll price for them. I mean, all the rest of the sockeye on the planet are gillnet. I, am not dressing sockeye for gillnet price. Any that I've ever caught were bought by the processor at coho prices, and probably went right in with the gillnet sockeye. If you could get reliable catches, finding a specialty market with restaurants or smokers would be key.

No body trolls for humpies up here. Logistics doesn't allow for price. to bad too, because we have plenty of them.

Bristol bay would be the obvious spot to troll for sockeyes, I imagine you would stay busy busy just trying to keep up with the snagged ones.

Salty

2008-05-04 04:23:38

Darn it, I had a nice reply and rap on catching sockeye and somehow managed to delete the whole thing.

Briefly, I have spent a good part of my life trying to catch sockeye. Both with a fly rod around SE Alaska and on my commercial troll gear since about 1978. I spent the summer of 1975 cruising SE from one sockeye stream to another trying to catch them on a fly rod. I think I caught two. But one, at Mill Creek, across from Wrangell, jumped 17 times and ran between my legs during the battle.

I have caught hundreds on my troll gear over the years incidental to pink and chum trolling off shore. I have never cracked 100 in one day but one of my partners has several times. I have talked at length with Canadian trollers and fly fishermen all over the NW about getting sockeye to bite. I have fished them in the Russian River with a fly rod. I have spent days trying to get them to bite at Redoubt just south of Sitka.

I think there are two big obstacles in SE.

1. There are too many pinks clogging up the gear off shore and in Cross Sound/Icy Straits during the time when the sockeye are coming by.

2. I don't think the schools of Sockeye going by the Baranof and Yakobi coast where I fish are thick enough to work like the Canadians do.

I think there may be tines when they are thick enough off of Noyes but a seine opening is always looming making it hard to target them there.

But, here are some facts to think about.

1. We didn't figure out how to catch chums until about 20 years ago, we have learned lots since then, and some of us have caught over 1,000 in a day and over 20,000 in a season.

2. My sport fish friends have figured out how to get Sockeye to bite at both Redoubt and near Snettisham. My friends with the right presentation and the right fly tell me it is an almost every cast deal at Redoubt if the fish are there and they aren't spooked.

3. The Canadians caught hundreds on troll gear day after day.

4. I am convinced that there were some days off of both Yakobi and Edgecumbe that I could have caught 2=400 sockeye if the pinks weren't clogging the gear.

If I was to try it off of Yakutat here is what I would do.

1. Straight same color flashers or straight chrome flashers every spread 1-1.5 fathoms apart.

2. At least 20 flashers a line to start.

3. A68 Michael Bait 24-30 inches back on a 50 lb. leader. Pink or blued #4 or 5 hook.

4. Dump everything in as close as possible without tangling and troll west at .5-1.5 knots.

5. If you get a bite let it clatter up.

6. Try to keep the action going on the lines as continuosly as possible to keep the bite going.

7. Sockeyes have notoriously soft mouths and are tremendous scrappers so using dip nets instead of a gaff might make sense.

If they start biting immediately call 907-738-chum (2486) with your position and I will arrive shortly with more tips.

Based on my experience with chums, sport fishing, hand trolling, etc. from Cross Sound to Neets Bay I believe there are a couple of other things to consider.

1. Critical mass of gear might be very important. I have spent lots of hours sport fishing chums with exactly the same gear as my commercial gear without much success with only one or two flashers out.

2. Every stock of chums is relatively unique in how they bite in SE. Our two stocks here at Deep Inlet have some very interesting differences that we have stumbled upon over the years. And the Hidden Falls and Neets Bay stocks are each unique in what works best to get them biting. I noticed the Russian River Sockeye were totally different in their aggressiveness and the size of the fly they would hit than the

Hotspott

2008-05-04 04:28:53

That is against the current. As to where we fished them, well, I am Canadian and my father, long gone, began fishing the BC coast in 1928. We started fishing them in the 70's...mainly off the west coast of Vancouver Island and the Charlottes and more recently in Queen Charlotte Sound off of Pine Island and all the way down Johnstone Strait as they make their way to the Fraser. I have also had a few good days in Rivers Inlet. I kind of think the Fraser fish are definitely "biters" and others may not bite as well as I have never heard of anyone really focussing on the Skeena sockeye trolling although they get decent runs there as well But it sounds like you have found some up there so be a leader and give it a shot!

We generally get a decent price for them but our prices for all fish have been hammered lately as a result of the farmed fish...I think we got $3 dressed in 2006 though we used to get $4 (and yes, we get a troll price for them which is better than the gillnet price)...much more than cohoes..the last year there was a decent run. I remember the last day of the fishery we were in lower Johnstone strait and we got 500....kept us a bit busy! Best fishing I remember for us was 2000 in 6 days in 97.

I heard this chef from a high class restaurant on the radio on Friday pointing out how much he enjoys pinks and that they should be uitilized a lot more than they are. Same thing here...lots of pinks..but very little price so very few people fish for them specifically...and often shake the ones that come on inadvertently. Hope the consumer finally catches on....we should make a better effort of marketing them as "wild salmon"...and at a reasonable price.

Hotspott

2008-05-04 04:32:06

Oh yeh, forget about gaffing them....either flip them in quickly (don't let them get started fighting)...you will definitely lose some.....or use a shallow dip net to scoop them aboard.

yak2you2

2008-05-04 07:49:54

Ok, i'm seeing where i've gone wrong I think. My previous attempts, i rigged up coho style, with only a couple of flashers per line, with a couple of spoons in between. sounds like I might have been spread out to far. It's interesting that Hotspott said a keyword for me, "biters". We don't have near the inside game you guys have. You go outside the mouth of Yakutat bay, and your in the Pacific. I know from my tag reports, and just from general size and appearance differences that you can be into a totally different school of fish, from one day to the next. I suspected after my dozen sockeye "accident" that I had hit a school from a river that were generally more aggressive than most.

I'm getting inspired to give it another try this summer. Sounds like i'll have to bring my dipnet too. My thinking is, With all that is changing in the industry, and the ever increasing pressure on kings and cohos, it might not hurt to start thinking about where to start expanding into. I can, of course, just go catch the sockeye with my gillnet, but, fuel prices have forced the entire gillnet fleet to consolidate into the area right near town, making it really competitive. We used to fish different rivers from Fairweather to Suckling, couple of hundred miles. Guys would have the fish flown to town from all different rivers, but no one can afford it anymore. It has put an intense amount of pressure on the Situk system, coupled with the increase in sport effort, it's only a matter of time before closures will be next. Leaving me with nothing to do in June and most of July. Our coho run has been dismal the last couple of years due to drought parent years. So, things are changing, I need to change with it.

Sounds like if I put the effort into it I should be able to stay busy catching sockeye with hooks. The next step will be getting a good price for them. I have my catcher/seller permit. Years ago no one wanted to buy kings here in the winter so we flew them to Anchorage and elsewhere. If need be a guy could go back to knocking on doors, but it's such a pain to squeeze all the boxing, delivering, paperwork/phone calls, in with everything else, but it may well be what has to be done.

You fellows sound very learned on the issues so let me run these by you.There's 2 things I've never really put much stock into. 1) The hot wire thing. I've watched more guys tear their hair out over concerns of having voltage on their wires because they've had an off day. I have played around with it quite a bit, and I can't see any difference. ran a line zinc on one side and not the other, no difference. Messed with the actual voltage with a black box, no difference. I run outboards though, maybe that is the key. A buddy of mine got out fished one day, so he convinced himself he was having problems. The next day he caught six on one side, nothing on the other, and that did it. He took a week off tearing things apart. He finally made it back out with a set of isolator hoses hooked up. His first day back out he caught 5 on each side, come to find out his isolator hose had popped off on one side, so go figure. Fish will just go for one side of the boat somedays, period. Don't try to figure out why just go with it. Somedays everybody else but you will be catching, Time to work on your Karma not your boat, am I right?Any thoughts? I'm not opposed to thought of trying something new, it just seems like a bigfoot hunt to me. My go to thought for most issues like this is, guys were fishing in 1900 . No isolators, blackboxes, or voltmeters, and probably had bare wire through out the entire boat, they caught loads of fish.#2) I noticed in earlier posts that you guys pay alot of attention to what color flasher your running. To be honest, I've not ever really put alot of stock in this one either. It's the flash that brings them in, and the lure that seals the deal right? I've put all red on one side, all white or blue on the other, time and time again, and I can't say I've noticed much difference. Someone once said that they paint things all those different colors to attract fisherman, not fish. I know thats not the case with lures. 1 colored spoon or hoochie can make all the difference in the world, I've just never seen my flashers really matter. Am I missing something??? Some gal at Murry's told me that the Sitka fleet was catching 2 to 1 on broken glass flashers last summer, I'm thinking, sales pitch? I've tried dozens of different flashers over the years, I can't say I've ever caught 2 to 1 on anything.

I've got green flashers, and I certainly will try running them for sockeye as you say, I'm just curious if you really think it matters that much. A68 Micheal bait is that going to be easy for me to find? I appreciate all the input. Salty, I got a good laugh out of the " call me if you find em" line.

Hotspott

2008-05-04 18:05:36

Personally, I am with you on the black box deal....some guys really think it makes a difference...others do perfectly fine not worrying about it. I like your 1900 analogy...wasn't a problem then...and isn't a problem now..if you are on the fish!

Well, when fishing off the west side of the Charlottes or the West Coast of Vancouver Island we are definitely in the Pacific as well....but the sockeye seem to come past in nice schools and bite just fine! They are however, very finicky and some times only bit e a few times a day...so it can be frustrating waiting...and just trying for a few hours at a spot that looks fishy on the sounder is really not good enough...I remember running away from spots only to hear they started biting later that afternoon....and also not running away when everyone else did...and picking up 300 after 5 PM when we only had 30 before that.

Green Hotspot flashers...well, all I know is that most guys here use them...have tried other colours and makes but these seem to work best...though there are probably some that do fine using other types...but I think having the same flasher and same hoochie on every snap makes it look more like a school of shrimp or whatever moving by. That Michael Bait seems to be the preferred hoochie here as well...but I am sure other similar ones would work as well.

Try getting large mesh in your landing net...and make it very shallow...just enough so you can scoop them in...too deep and the hook gets tangled up in the net and you take too much time getting each fish off the hook...especially when they are biting!

The other thing some guys have done is they have made an L shaped piece of copper tubing or some type of metal and placed it on the stern rail with the long part of the L horizontal to the rail. This tubing is flexible and can turn in the rail to the appropriate angle for pulling or setting. They then put each hoochie on there in order when pulling up, lie the flasher on the stern gear deck...and, when setting the gear they simply place the snap on, perhaps toss the flasher over, and let the pressure of the line going down pull the hoochie off as the angle of the tubing is set appropriately...makes things faster if everything goes smoothly...which it doesn't always. Perhaps you do that now??

Salty

2008-05-04 19:01:47

You know someone could actually learn something on this site. I have already.

On a couple of thoughts posted here.

1. Voltage- If your boat is fishing fine don't worry about it. I am totally immersed in getting it right to the tune of helping get Canadian Guru Malcolm Russell up here last spring to go through my boat, my son's boat, and several others. I have had bad experiences with transducers, bonding, etc. over the years and with the group I am in if you aren't just right you know it right away. Just two winters ago I had a transducer go bad and my catch rate was practically zero while there were good bites going on. I hauled out, redid my zincs, etc. to no avail. I had situations where I found the fish and caught a few until others showed up and then got to watch others pull fish for hours while I waited for a bite. Finally, my one partner who caught 24 while I caught 4 a day after my son caught 47 and I caught 2, came over and said something was totally wrong and he suggested changing to my backup transducer. Next day I caught 49 kings and was high guy in my group.

There are guys in this fleet who still call me every time they get in a good bite because I helped them get their voltage right. But, it isn't easy and those of us with relatively small wooden or fiberglass boats are never going to catch like the big steel rigs. They just have a better and bigger "field" to draw them in.

I have several partners who consistently produce very well who have never bonded their boats or bought a black box. The first black box I bought resulted in a super trip. I still wonder how well I would have done if I had taken it out of the box and hooked it up. Once you become convinced it matters it can drive you crazy worrying about it. My bonding system is hooked up three different ways because I have had straps break or fall off. If I don't catch like I think I should I am immediately running around with the voltmeter checkingh my leads etc. Sometimes I wish I had never heard of "voltage" and bonding.

2. I don't know about the green edged hotspots for sockeye but I do know that the flasher seemed to make a difference chum and pink fishing. I used blue hotspots for years. Now we have our flashers for our group specially made and we special order different types of finish to tape on them.

3. Gear setters. We tried the tubes etc. for several years and different guys tried different styles. My son, who is a fabricator, and aluminum welder designed a new system about two years ago that really works. We set the flashers and hooks in the setter and when we put the gear out we just snap the snaps on without ever touching the flasher or hook. It sets them out as fast as you can go perfectly every time. He is busy building his system for my partners and friends this spring. I keep telling him to patent it as every troller is going to want one. It also works great for coho spoons. Saves a lot of energy, is faster, and safer.

He has them set up so you can box all your gear and snaps so you can set a coho box in if you are fishing coho, a humpy/chum box for flashers, or a mixed king and coho combo. They just set in your stern and you are converted within minutes.

Hotspott

2008-05-04 19:15:56

Wow, that gear setter sounds great....he better patent it...everyone will want one! Maybe I could be the Canadian rep!! Got a picture?

yak2you2

2008-05-04 19:53:22

I'm curios how many guys had a half a dozen, the day you were high with 47 ? meaning, it just seems to go around. Did you ever put your old transducer back on and give it a second chance so you were sure thats what it was? I don't want to torture myself, but on the other hand, if there was an absolute in it all that could make a guy put in more fish I want to know about it. How does a guy go about checking his wires, and in your opinion, what should they be reading.

This spring, I was high for about 2 weeks, I did some work on the boat during a storm, the first day back everyone near me was catching 10's and 12's, I never even had a bite. Same thing the next day. I darn near convinced myself that I screwed something up. I was just about to start tearing things apart, but I went out again, and this time I was right in there with everybody else.

It deffinately seems like something that once you get started on it, you will never be satisfied. One time , years ago, I was cranking 1 in and I looked behind him and I saw a school of about 20 more. For about 2 hours I had a pretty steady fish on after that, and nobody else around me was catching anything. My theory is that I had the whole school, such as it was, following right behind me. i have often wondered how often that happens.

yak2you2

2008-05-04 19:59:44

Yeah, a picture posted on here of your son's gear setter, salty, would be nice. I just can't seem to draw a mental picture for myself. Currently I drag everything behind me on my overhead, and it is a pain to keep from tangling at times when i'm running alot of gear, might be nice to have a jig that would help out.

Ocean Harvester

2008-05-05 04:54:09

Allot of sportfishers in washington have figured out that they can get a fair amount of sockeye to bite a small white flasher or dodger and a bare red hook trolled slow. Most of this fishery takes place in Lake Washington where the fish are a day out of salt but some have found it works in the salt to. Seemed crazy to me untill I saw it myself. Everything I have heard is that a former National Marine fisheries biologist Tony Novotny started using it after hearing about it from a commercial troller who also used blue and black hooks. This troller said he thought the fish saw the hooks as being small shrimp. Who knows you may give it a try.

Salty

2008-05-05 06:32:50

Don't seem to be able to figure out the uploading photo's. Plus Karl said if you are interested to call him at 738-1321. It is his business so I don't want to interfere except to say I don't think my crew who have used them would go chum or pink fishing without them.

We have read about the Lake Washington success. I don't think anyone has tried it in a big way here. Blue hooks were our original lure in the chum fishery, but they are hard to handle in a volume fishery. They keep ending up in your fingers etc. Much easier to keep track of and dodge a bug.

yak2you2

2008-05-05 23:00:46

Don't feel bad, I'm only marginally computer literate myself. I have some good pics from this winter's trolling, but I don't have a clue how to post them. I have some in my mailbox, I can forward them, but thats about it. Maybe we could talk Jon into put an instruction post up for us. Better right it in crayon for me. Or maybe i'll just pull rank, and make my teenage daughter do it for me. :D

Hotspott

2008-05-05 23:02:29

Try this:

Upload Attachment

Browse (beside File Name)

Find the picture in your files and then click on it

Open

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Hotspott

2008-07-19 06:11:01

Anybody trying the sockeye fishing as some of you suggested you might this season?

yak2you2

2008-07-20 05:24:54

I did tie up a couple spreads and gave it a couple trial pulls just for curiosity's sake. Amazingly enough I did actually catch enough to prove to myself that I could do it at will.The problem is our local processor doesn't seem to interested in cultivating a niche market for troll sockeye, so if i'm going to ever do it, i'll be boxing and shipping I think. I cleaned up a few and took them into him, he threw out 1.20 per lb. I pointed out that the gillnet price is 1.25 per lb. for round fish, so he begrudingly came up to 1.40, so I got the message," take your troll sockeye somewhere else". The problem is cleaning sockeye and selling them on the top end is the business he's in, and he's not looking to share. plus, they just killed 20,000,000 reds in bristol bay, lots more on the way from Cook inlet, the market's pretty well saturated. I know i'm not going to clean a bunch of 4 to 5 lb. dressed wt. fish for 1.40, but it is neat to be able to do it. If nothing else, I could always just go catch a pile and sell them in the round for 1.20 if there were nothing else whatever to do, but i'm about to go focus on the cohos for a while, there big already and 1.75 per lb.Nice little summer storm were having, maybe it's whats needed to push the hoes in.

Thanks for the tips though, they did make all the difference.

mswkickdrum

2008-11-05 05:51:23

Eric/Salty,

I've read in some of your posts about the work your son has done on designing a Hay Rack

that is easy on the fisherman. Something about a removable tray? that holds all the tackle

gear etc. (I'm sure I'm not using the right terminology here). I just got my boat and would

like to make a Hay Rack for it. Obviously, it would be a bit inefficient to have one built

thousands of miles away needing to be shipped to me. Is there a way I could contact

him to at least get some consultation on dimensions or maybe have him construct

the bin/tray part for me and ship it? Then build the rack around that to his recommended

dimensions? This would be a great help, I would hate to end up making something

twice to get it right. No doubt I will be doing that in many aspects to this venture,

it would be nice to reduce that occurrence as much as possible. I'd post a picture

of my boat but it's looking a bit rough yet and still needs some serious painting,

thus everyone would point and laugh at me.....which could be warranted.

Will you be at the fish expo? Also, hope if I get to meet you up there, I would

be honored if you would sign my copy of your mom's book, which is a copy

signed by her.

Thanks,

MSW

Salty

2008-11-05 17:16:32

I just talked to Karl. I have contracted him to do a hayrack project similar to one I have some pictures of. But what you seem most interested in is his gear setting and conversion system which have revolutionized trolling for some of us. I think you are on the right track thinking about integrating the whole system ergonomically and efficiently for quality and function which is what Karl is doing. His business is Jordan Welding and his cell phone # is 738-1321.

Karl's most recent boat, the Sassy, was rebuilt by Jonathan Moore, who is a marine engineer. It is arguably the best set up slush tank troller in the fleet.

In Sitka right now we have a good collection of Aluminum welders and fabricators. There is lots of good pole and hayrack work showing up.

Salty

2008-11-05 17:17:26

Yak,

On the sockeye trolling; have you considered slushing round?

mswkickdrum

2008-11-05 22:39:45

Thanks so much Eric! I will call him. Yes, my concern is setting up the troll pit area

to work as smooth as possible for both me AND the product. Any pictures of

the arengment of gurdys, catch bins etc. would be super helpful.

My boat previously had a hay rack but in it's recent life it has been removed.

A lot of guys on the coast also do pots for black cod, as my boat's previous

owner did. I suspect it was removed to accommodate pots on deck. There

is a old picture of it on Historic Fishing. The pic there is of much happier

days for the boat. I hate the name on it now, but changing the name is

supposed to be bad luck? Will I reverse the hex if I change it back to

the original name? It was built in AK by a guy named Nick Kristovich,

who was a fisherman that built it much himself I guess.

can see it here:

http://66.154.152.16/gallery/view_photo.php?set_albumName=album46&id=Sonna

A brief newspaper write up about it from 1934 is here:

http://www.newspaperabstracts.com/link.php?action=detail&id=1570

THanks,

MSW

Salty

2008-11-05 23:32:11

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Here is a good example of a good hayrack. Notice how the gurdies are up out of the way but the controls are not too high. The box for the computer monitor etc. is built right in. It is important that the controls be about chest height. Reaching up all day will tire you out way faster than reaching between your nipples and your groin. This as a good example and the detail is really impressive if you look at it up close, including the location of rinsing bin and the way the hatch lifts up next to the rinsing bin. The flow is excellent from cleaning station to rinsing bin to ice hold. Nevertheless I would change at least a couple of things. The brass rope guide is right where I would like to slip the fish over the rail for example. I have seen a boat, and Karl has designed a hydraulic lift system for another, where the fish don't have to be lifted up after cleaning. They go directly from the cleaning trough to the final rinsing bin where they slide either by gravity or with a slight lift of the bin down to the fish hold or slush tank. Ideally you would land them in a slaughter/bleeding bin on deck, slide them directly into the cleaning trough and from there into the hold or slush tank without lifting them again. I have not got there yet but Karl and I are going to work on it this winter.

Hope this gives you some ideas.

yak2you2

2008-11-07 08:46:38

Salty,

I would be glad to round slush troll caught sockeye, the problem is getting paid for them. I got mostly resistance from the local buyer this last year when I approached him about it. He simply has plenty of sockeye sources from around the state at that time of year for cheaper than what i'm interested in fishing for. He wouldn't give me any more than 25 cents over gillnet price. I'm not sure how others who have trolled them in the past were able to secure a troll caught price when there's 40 million gillnet sockeye in Alaska alone out there. before anyone says it, not all gillnet fish are junk, Copper river's niche market as an example, brings in significantly higher prices than the average gillnet fish. Most of these probably wind up on a dinner plate in a restaurant, and there's a lot of them, like 2-5 million on an average year. so, finding a niche market that hasn't already been hit, would be tough. Having the time to hunt for that market, box up the fish, and deliver them, would be even tougher.

Also, I said I figured out how to catch them consistently, catching them in quantities that would make it worth the time, might be a different story. I am just not sure that we have big enough schools of them heading for our little rivers to make them add up on the average year.

If i'm not going to be able to get a significantly higher price, why not just wipe em all out with the gillnet like everybody else? It might be an option to keep in mind though during gillnet closures when a guy doesn't have anything else to do.

I do appreciate everyone's pointers on catching them, it's really neat when you master a new fishery like that. For me it's like scratching an itch.

bigjoe

2008-11-07 14:21:48

Have u or can u ship to the Asian market with your fish???

Salty

2008-11-07 16:50:49

I tend to agree with you about the problem of not enough to really get it going. But the troll sockeye will likely be better quality than gillnet sockeye. I think the challenge is in the catching. If you could start catching say 2-600 a day then the motivation to develop the market would spur action. Say they average 5 lbs round and you get $1.50 per lb. Even at the low end of 200 a day you are looking at $1,500.00 per day.

And the efficiency of both the catching and handling would evolve. The market for an Alaska troll caught sockeye is there. It just hasn't been cultivated yet.

We worked on herring proposals last night at the AC. An almost unbelievably healthy herring stock here in Sitka Sound. Record spawn deposition in 2007 and likely similar in 2008. Lots of herring in the area and it looks like a new strong year class or two of young herring on the horizon. A long time native troller and seiner on the committee went on for a long time about how it was the most herring he had ever seen in the Sitka area. Record herring sets last spring.

So it was with some surprise that I listened to otherwise well educated and informed candidates for the Sitka Tribal Council go on the radio this morning talking about the problems with the herring abundance. What would they be saying if there really was a problem? I go back to the mid 50's and my fathers letters to the Federal Government about mismanagement of herring during the summer reduction fisheries in my involvement with herring conservation. The credibility of the Tribe with me is suffering from their opinions about herring in the face of the best science and fisherman observations.

I bring this all up because it is time to start reading the proposals and making comments.

mswkickdrum

2008-11-25 05:15:37

Eric,

Thanks again for answering these posts! I feel like I'll owe you a consultation fee.

Anyway,

1.When I call and talk to Karl will he know about the "gear setting and conversion system"?

or do I need to get some dimensions / pictures from you or your son? Can I?, or is

it part of the "top secret" wares your group has? That part of the set up to me seems

VERY important. It will be my first season, and if I'm even lucky enough to catch

a fish or two, the part you talked about where the system virtually eliminates

hooking yourself seems a good measure to pursue for me. I'd like to NOT

put a hook through my hand attached to many feet of stainless cable with

a 65 pound lead ball at the end of it going away from me into the depths.

Seriously, that would be a bad situation by myself.

2. The fish totes, I think the size we talked about is a "half tote",

the one I measured was 43L 22W 26H. Would it be a smart move

to put those in my hold? (7-9 of them) Instead of old style icing?

How many fish (coho) will I put in each one slushed? Just a

guestamate? About half that for Kings? Obviously I would

be making some brackets or a flat floor section in my hold

as the bottom is rounded and I don't want them sliding around.

3. How imperative is it for me to have bathy charts? Is that

going to be WAY beyond me my first season? I would need

to use the recorder to "make" real charts anyway. I asked

at the Expo, the ones that come with from Nobeltec are

just algorithms of the depth markings on the charts. Some

of those are a hundred years old. Not to much valuable

info there to start with, but after many passes I guess

you could get a good area coverage.

Thanks so much, hope you are doing well.

Marshall