Drag Etiquette
akfish
2013-10-03 01:42:50
I know this has been talked about before but after seeing Salty's funny posts about trollers learning in Kindergarten to get in Line! My first year this year and was a little surprised in the lack of semblance on the drag! Especially white out fog, I would think it would be easier and safer for everyone to at keast try to have some reasonable semblance. Shocked also how the guys fishing alone in bigger boats just tack right down the middle and could care less how many people they almost run into NEVER looking up from the pit! Just thought I would see if I am the only one who at least wonders why! I know you can always go somewhere else but can ran away from huge numbers that were being caught!
Siskiyous
2013-10-07 19:29:55
I am surprised by the straight line mentality, I follow contour lines.
It is my first season, but I am just a few fish shy of 700 for 11 weeks of fishing. Not a high liner, but next years payment is in the bank, and the crew hasn't quit.
The sport fleets are the worst, it is incredible that they sit in the middle of navigation channels and look at you like your the devil for making them move.
I am easy to find in the fog, I am the only troller using a fog signal.
akfish
2013-10-07 21:53:23
Sport boats are an issue also but for me the guys with no crew dragging down the middle without ever looking up! Congrats on your first year this was mine also! It was a blast and hopefully will be half as good next year!
Salty
2013-10-07 23:39:38
With the modern computerized charting systems along with bathy, 3d, and bottom type discrimination, it is important to realize that almost every troller is using a different data set to determine how to fish an area. That the concept of a standardized drag is as obsolete as leadlines in most areas, most of the time.
What is timeless is courtesy, a magnanimous attitude, watching out for each other, and an attitude of self depreciation in that you might not know enough to be sure the other guy is behaving poorly. That the guy you are upset with for not moving might be dragging a lot deeper/shallower etc.
I fished a drag on July 1 this year that i put a good bit of time on in the early 80's. The experienced guys now, who started fishing the drag in the 90's were dragging it completely different than we drug it in the 80's. And the guy doing the best (doubled most everyone) had a totally unique way to fish it.
akfish
2013-10-08 00:13:13
Thats true Salty 90% of the time but fishing 30fm of gear in 60 fm of water off surge is the example I guess I would refer to! You are right one boat could fish a drag different than the next. I always do my best to give plenty of room. I am sure over your long trolling career you have seen similar situations. Thanks
Salty
2013-10-08 01:19:13
Good point in my opinion. I just hope I never get confused, desperate, or greedy enough that I ever find myself fishing Yakobi again.
A lesson I have learned is that no one criticizes your drag etiquette when you are the only one on the drag.
Trnaround
2013-10-08 05:21:53
The subject of "drag etiquette" has certainly been discussed a lot, on this forum, on the dock, in the wheelhouse and in the bar and it seems like their ain't no answer other than don't run into anyone if you can help it. Those folks that don't pay attention usually end up paying the price someday when they run into their own type. Literally. I saw two mangled poles this year which is more than I have seen in years. It's expensive, if you survive it. No, most of the experienced trollers can see a drag and get with the program and catch their fish, those guys that don't sooner or later get theirs so don't be irritated by them. Fish your contours and catch your fish and remember the Kindergarten rules like #6 don't just stare out the window, pay attention oh and #1 get in line. Ha ha good fishing.
I put my head down and don't look up when I see sport boats ahead. :)
PS, if you think the ocean is bad, you should avoid chum trolling.
carojae
2013-10-08 16:10:00
I know I've made mistakes many-a-time, not intentionally but sh*t happens. There are so many variables that might have made the other guy do what he or she did. From avoiding a log in a heavy tidal kelp line to misjudging the tidal currents on a big tide to whatever (fill in the blank), mistakes happen. Even trying to gauge when one should turn so that it works out for everyone on the drag.
That said, I never get on channel 16 and chew the other guy a new a**hole over his mistake. Oh yes, the chronic abuser will hear about it no doubt. I might add I have my list of people who can't seem to get it right.......you do too I bet.
And
Jim
Good post, Jim. I fish alone most of the time and I try my best to avoid conflicts with other boats trying to fish the same area - with moderate success. I will move if I can but sometimes I just can't. And since you bring the additional topic up - I share in the irritation [and lack of respect] for those "chronic bitchers" [guy or gal]" who have to get on Ch 16 to prove he/she is the ultimate authority on drag-specific etiquette.
akfish
2013-10-08 21:12:11
Salty, you are right about your last comment for sure! What a Zoo it was off Yakobi all Summer. I plan on doing some more searching next year and venture a little further but with being my first year and needing the money I stuck it out. Its hard to run from 100 a day to find better. I know most guys were doing way better than that but I was satisfied for sure. Carojae yeah I heard a lot of insults on the radio that were pretty childish and pointless.
JYDPDX
2013-10-08 21:33:56
Im sorry but the hypocrisy in this thread is getting out of control.
First you have a guy complaining about bigger boats pushing him around but he also states proudly that he'll not give any right of way to a sport boat.
Then you have guys COMPLAINING about the "repeat offenders" but seem to think the only thing worse than committing an offense on the drag is to "bitch" about it on 16.
Personally I think the problems with the crowded drags are lack of communication and passivity. Thats not to say any air time on 16 should be wasted, there are other channels and aggressive recourse is not the answer either..... . Ignoring aN egregious offense is only reinforcing that offender to do it again. There's something about the anonyniminity provided by our boats and lack of communication that allows for these problems. This kind of greedy and cutthroat behavior would never be found at a grocery store or on the streets, maybe on a grade school playground.... We are too competitive and would benefit from working better together as professionals and colleagues. -Just my two cents.
I've got a shitlist going. Boats that for a long time will be subject to complete disregard. Not that I retaliate much, its too stressful but it feels better to have a mental list.
I am sure that I am on someones list too :)
Kelper
2013-10-09 02:21:07
I don't think it'd be as much fun on July 1st if you didn't have some serious combat fishing going on. 20 trollers and about 40 charter boats all fishing the same bite can really can put on a show. It was a damn good show on the beach drag on Noyes this year. The more aggressive guys were from out of town, and they did most of the screaming. Most of the sport boats that got right in the drag were HT guys, mooching.
carojae
2013-10-09 18:15:00
It's not hypocrisy when
I know if I drifted or anchored the Caroline during a hot bite in some prime spots on the drag I"d hear about it. lol
Peace out.
First you have a guy complaining about bigger boats pushing him around but he also states proudly that he'll not give any right of way to a sport boat.
I was under the impression that if you have lines in the water that you have right of way over all boats not engaged in commercial fishing.
PS sorry for that time at cape cross when I (F/V Mary Carl) was pushing you out off the beach, I'd only been there a few days, was dragging 30 and was busy enough with fish and didn't want to get close enough in that I had to pay too much attention to the bottom.
I get a little frustrated with the way traditional etiquette can interfere with catching more fish. Sometimes I catch a lot better going perpendicular to the tide, but it's nearly impossible to do this in any location with other boats around. Some places or tides a port tack along the beach would be better than a starboard one, but there is no way to organize this with other boats.
Salty
2013-10-09 21:38:25
I agree with the sentiment expressed about communication. I usually try to express appreciation via the cell or Sattelite phone. Sometimes you can work out creative solutions to optimize the catching or minimize the effect of wind or sea.
I notice how popular texting has become and use that means of communication a lot now. I have observed that you need to be careful with texts. They are easily forwarded and out of context can be misunderstood. They also don't contain the tone and nuance of voice communication so are sometimes misconstrued. Texting scores, if you still count individual fish, can lead to all kinds of down line problems.
But then there are wonderful texts like one I got this summer. "Run here now."
Of course the best troll etiquette is to message a picture of a school of thousands of salmon to your partner. I got a couple of those this summer.
Once and Future
2013-10-10 01:57:21
Well, here is a "Is it just me" question. Is it just me that, when trying to observe the axiom of "starboard pole to the beach" has right-of-way, and I just begin to turn out away from the beach to give way, that the other captain swings out more aggressively to force me back onto the beach to avoid him, possibly into shallow water?
I had that happen multiple times in Whale Bay in the past. Wondered if it was special treatment for an unfamiliar boat, as it didn't seem to be happening with other boats on the same loose drag.
Trnaround
2013-10-11 16:05:50
Once and the Future, I have seen some interesting things in the same area at times but I don't think there is anyone there trying to be malicious but sometimes it seems like it. There are boats dragging deep and some shallow and sometimes there is a conflict there but most of the time the deep draggers are out in in the middle and just pass each other on either side. If you are on the beach with your starboard pole and you approach another boat, if you turn out the other boat should turn out to allow you to stay in deep enough water. You should normally pass port to port. That gives the inside boat the ability to fish their depth. Sometimes you need to stay way out if you are approaching a boat coming up to you with their starboard pole to the beach. On that drag where they are dipping in and out coming at you sometimes it looks like they are heading at you on purpose but they are just keeping off of the bottom. Maybe you could explain the situation in more detail that occurred.
Once and Future
2013-10-12 19:39:57
Thanks for the reply, Trn. These boats turned out so sharply there was no way for me to continue outside of them. The only choice I was left with was to turn inside of them. I read it as they didn't know me and therefore didn't trust me not to force them onto the beach, so they forced me to the beach. Luckily, being a little unfamiliar with the area, I had my gear shallow and did not hang up.
The specifics were: Trolling on the south side of Whale Bay, where heading westerly would be heading toward the ocean with port pole to beach. My intentions were to yield right of way when approaching boats with their starboard pole to the beach heading easterly. Indeed, this seemed to be the trend with the rest of the fleet. But as I said, just as I started to turn away, the other boat had started turning simultaneously, on a path that would take them across my bow. These were not close calls. I was turning out soon enough that there should have been no tension. This happened three times or so, with different boats.
One time, the other guy got on 16 and called "Lookout, I'm going this way!" In a schoolyard jackass tone of voice. I answered right back: "You want me to go INSIDE of you???" His kind of sheepish response was "Well yes, you have less gear out than I do..." How he thought he knew how much gear I had out is beyond me. But anyway, the fact that we had time for that exchange shows it wasn't a close call. And his tone of voice was a giveaway that in my opinion, they were hazing me a little.
This was during the king opening in 2012. Fish weren't biting very well and I think they decided to turn their attentions to defending turf.
Trnaround
2013-10-13 05:37:04
Man, don't know what to think of that other than he was probably just try to drive you off and was just being a jerk. I fished there that year but not exactly there. That year it was hard to find fish in the usual spots and for some it was not good catching. You were doing exactly the right thing, you were just fishing around a difficult person. They are out there, put them on your stern quarter and don't let them get to you.
rule of thumb i go by is if we cross paths and you have a red light showing to my boat YOU have the right of way, i see your green light I have the right of way..size of boat does not matter,I've had a freighter alter it's course because i had the right of way.(it was just me & him ,he passed my stern by 2-3 miles away,but he did alter course) ...having lines in the water does not make any difference in terms of 'right of way' because you still can control the course of your boat,longling/trawling with net would be different category in that they have right of way......in fog i treat it as NO ONE has right of way an alter course for any vessel i happen upon .. just my 2cents.
Trnaround
2013-10-13 13:06:00
d27, right on, basic rules of the road apply, especially if there is a collision and the CG is called to investigate. Head on passes should be red to red if possible which is consistent with the "starboard pole to the beach etiquette". In the Sitka Herring fishery there have been collisions and the CG rules based on the basic rules of navigation. Not where you ever want to be so when in doubt I like your "fog rule".
Kelper
2013-10-13 15:35:11
Good post. That was my understanding. Gear in the water does not give trollers the automatic right of way over all sport boats.
Once and Future
2013-10-25 14:42:10
Regarding above when the advice is to put a difficult person "on your stern quarter", that's probably good advice for my own sanity. EXCEPT that this is just what they want me to do, and they win the drag...
For the record, it was more than one boat behaving that way, and that is what makes me think they were collectively protecting their turf. I kept fishing there for a while, but the fact there were few fish made it a pretty pointless conflict.
Salty
2013-10-25 16:34:01
Territorial-ism on drags is as old as trolling. Certainly a sin and to be avoided in our behavior. I confess, I have been guilty. Much more tolerant of people following me onto drags which I have been working myself for days or years than I used to be. I still resent guys getting right behind me and making a track line of the drag I am on all by myself which no one else is or has been on in years. But, I just move on or patiently take turns these days.
A bigger problem is what to do when guys are running starboard pole on the beach dragging 40-50 fathoms on the 100 edge when there are piles of fish in the pinnacles inside of em where I have it mapped and can drag 24 both ways well inside of em. Invariably no one even attempts the drag until I start going both ways and then (there must be some kind of psychological explanation) guys start trying to make sure I can't go inside of em port to the beach even though they can't get in where I am without shallowing up and gathering a whole lot of data. Or worse, complaining about "back slapping" when there is plenty of room inside of em.
The best ways to avoid these problems is to invest in the very best technology and then use it to create your own drags well away from everyone. When forced to fish with the rest of the fleet be as absolutely courteous as possible. The amazing thing to think about is how unique everyone's information base they are using to calculate the drag is now. It used to be that guys were using the same landmarks, following an edge with a fathometer based on a paper chart in the 50's. Then as we got loran's we started running loran lines and the drags conformed in a lot of cases to loran lines.
Then the 2D computer changed everything. I pioneered the nobletec chart plotter around here in the early 90's. Remember Navtrek? It allowed us to create whole new drags based on where we were on the 2 D chart and our pinnacle or edge marks. Then about 6 years ago the bathymetric bottom charting and 3D technology became available and some of us started using it to fish deeper and create drags we never could have attempted before. What is interesting about this technology is that almost everyone has a unique data set depending on their experience with the program, their ability to use the data, display the edges, etc.
So, you find yourself fishing 27 fathoms of wire where no one fished more than 18 fathoms for years. Lately I have been fishing an area 10-20 fathoms deeper than my partners. It means none of us can anticipate with 100% accuracy what edge or depth the other guys are running. So, yielding starboard to the beach, while theoretically fine doesn't work when your starboard to the beach edge dragging 30 is in the middle of the back tack for guys who are running 20 and have never imagined anyone running 30 through those humps. They just aren't going to yield and it would be rude to ask them to adjust their back tack just for you.
Another problem is what to do when some guys are running an edge and the fish are lined up in the rips setting into the edge and some of the guys start working the rips and the fish while others insist on running the edge and cutting across the rips and lines of fish instead of orienting on them. My attitude is that courtesy rules, try to avoid everyone and understand everyone in the troll fleet has a unique set of experience, awareness, and information systems.
Another complicating factor is the advent of the pink and chum fishery with a whole new set of troll problems and evolving solutions. Some of us have rebuilt our boats with new engines, props, rudders, etc. to become more maneuverable at low speeds. Others have saved money and a great deal of labor by deploying drag bags, which while slowing the boat down, often reduce maneuverability leading these guys to prefer straighter more predictable tacks. And some of the guys think that chums bite best at about 1-1.3 knots over water every year. While others seem to believe that every stock and every year is unique and some years they bite fine up to 2.0 knots. Creates jam ups on the chum drag if you are in a circle.
Trnaround
2013-10-25 19:24:21
Once and the Future, everyone has experience what you described at some time or other. What you do with it is who you are. You can choose to stay and fight, you can ignore them completely or you can move on to something else. I will say this, in my humble opinion it IS about your sanity and what kind of day you want to have. Nothing better for the sanity than to land on the fish and you are all by yourself.
Salty
2013-10-26 01:04:29
I wish there were likes on this site. I would be posting them all the time. Like for the previous post. Right on, go find your own fish. Believe me it is way more fun and often more profitable.
Everybody is running different leader lengths and flasher brands as well. I know for myself, that my gear doesn't work very well under 1.5 unless the fish are just crazy thick everywhere.