Pressure Bleeding
SE AK
2013-02-20 04:16:07
Does anybody have any advice on how to properly pressure bleed? What sort of fitting? How to get the right water pressure, what is the right technique, that sort of thing. I would like to start pressure bleeding at least my winter/spring kings and since I'm in the middle of a massive rebuild I thought that this would be a good time to look for advice.
Salty
2013-02-20 04:56:30
I have been pressure bleeding since we learned how to do it a number of years ago. There are basically two methods.
1. Taking your knife and cutting the bones toward the vent end of the kidney/bloodline and placing your cleaning hose onto the area and adjusting until a deep red blood line starts running out of these bones. In about 30 seconds the water coming out will clear up and you have successfully bled the salmon. The first few times you do this it will take some adjusting until the water turns deep red and you are pumping the blood out.
2. A few years ago National Fisherman highliner Dan Falvey, and his crew figured out how to insert a pipette into the veins in the neck of headed salmon bound for the freezer and thoroughly pump the blood out. Shortly thereafter those of us delivering head on salmon figured out how to insert the pipettes (furnished by SPC and available at Murray Pacific) into the veins in the neck with the head on. This method is best accomplished with an adjustable flow valve on your hose so the pressure is just right (about like an old man peeing). Insert pipette into the vein (I rough my pipette up on the outside so it won't slide out) turn the water on to the correct pressure and within 15-20 seconds all the blood is pumped out.
Unfortunately the processors refuse to pay us any premium for pressure bleeding our salmon, and while I do it whenever possible for dressed salmon because we have everything set up and I am such a lowliner that we have plenty of time to fool with every dressed fish, it really frustrates me that our industry can not figure out a way to pay a premium for the best handled and freshest fish. So, my few fish that I deliver on the third day, slipped gently over the rail, bled and cleaned immediately, pressure bled, and with all the fleas removed get the same price as the guy delivering on the 8th or 9th day with all the fleas on, most of the scales gone, after laying on deck for an hour or so, no thought of pressure bleeding.
Until this industry starts paying us for quality rather than volume most of the fleet will sacrifice quality for volume every time they are in a hot bite.
Here is a picture of about the right flow when inserting the hose onto the backbones as described in #1.
[attachment=0]washing silver.jpg[/attachment]
JYDPDX
2013-02-20 06:21:09
Until this industry starts paying us for quality rather than volume most of the fleet will sacrifice quality for volume every time they are in a hot bite.
[attachment=0]washing silver.jpg[/attachment]
Thank you for bringing this concept to light. Our fishery is fundamentally flawed in this regard. It is mind-boggling that lower quality producers are able to make more money than those that take the extra time to make their fish perfect. It is sickening to think about really. Those of us that produce the highest quality product do so out of pride and personal sacrifice. I get disgusted when I get compliments on my fish because it only means that most others are doing an inferior job and consumers eat their crappy fish and that represents all of our product.
Why is it not possible to have an incentive based price or even a slight reward for higher quality? Or even just a higher standard? I have seen tenders number 2 half a delivery before out of pride alone and have heard that the plant has lower standards. Why do our buyers not care about quality? Probably because the accepted standard is ambiguous with other gear groups. Fish is fish.
This is a travesty.
yak2you2
2013-02-20 08:06:37
I've often wondered what would happen if we had a personal tagging program. "This fish was caught for you by John Doe, on the vessel so and so ". Would it travel up and down the line? Meaning, would a chef somewhere call up the distributor and say, " i'll take some more fish from the So and So if you've got them, but I sure don' t want anymore from the Such and Such " Would it then make it back to the processor, and ultimately benefit the fisherman? You'd think with fish that are mostly headed to a restaurant or high end market it would make a difference. A whole fistfull of zipties identifying a boat, would cost next to nothing over at kinkos.
If it actually worked and forced individual accountability, it could be a good thing. I think it would be a huge marketing tool. If an industry is proud enough to display individual handling, it says, "hey, we care about you, enough to sign our names to it, all the way to your dinner table ".
I was directly involved with a quality incentive program for troll fish in the late 80s at a Sitka processor. Many people went to great lengths to pass the minor Company boat inspection to see if the boat was prepared to power-bleed fish and also knew the hands-on fundamentals. There were some attentive and very zealous trollers cleaning that had absolutely beautiful slushed fish and [of course] F-A-S fish. After a lot of pre-season coordination and some expense for vessel preparation - these efforts precipitated a bump in the price up for everyone else in the fleet when the word got out and the other processors just matched the .10 cent/lb incentive price. Many of those individuals had a lot of self-pride and high self-standards and continued the process even though there was no longer a direct incentive. Everyone in the fleet benefited from the blanket increase in prices but the Company was disappointed that the fishermen doing the extra work lost a monetary edge for their efforts. They were (and still are) beautiful fish when bled correctly.
I just re-read this and after reading the Yak post above I have always liked the ID tagging idea (think the huge fresh and frozen Fish Market in Tokyo) but I think individual tagging is done or [at least] has been done with anchoring clothing-style flag darts into the dorsal fin(s). I can't remember any of the real details or level of identity sourcing, but I remember it being done to a degree in Sitka plants according to some select high-quality markets. for later customer appreciation response of quality-handling benefits. The local DEC person was NOT impressed with the tag anchor-injection idea and possible flesh contamination but an alternative method or two seemed to work well enough. (Memory loss - getting older is a bitch.)
lone eagle
2013-02-20 19:16:20
My buyer made it real clear that soft flesh or scale loss would downgrade a fish to the #2 bin and that hurts at these prices. That is my incentive and it works! But then his market might have higher standards than most
Abundance
2013-02-20 19:28:42
I've noticed that the plants have gotten much stricter with quality. The acceptable trip limit has gone from ten days to five days to three days. I have been repeatedly told by the local plant that they didnt want anything over four days old. I know that sticking my name to a fish would make me go the extra mile, thats for sure. With fas shrimp, we sell to Japan and each kilogram box is labeled with our boat code for reference. Several boats have been temporarily banned, and several have come out as buyers pets because of their efforts. Knowing that we are held personally accountable for the quality of every pound of product is somewhat ulcer inducing, but we do try very hard because of it.
gumpucky
2013-02-20 20:09:43
One could tag like we had during the shaker program with a zip strip and tag through the mouth and back around the gill flap or a wide pliable zip strip with whatever identification you use around the wrist or whatever thats called foreward the tail fin. Don't see how that would affect flesh quality. I've seen real garbage come off some of these boats that doesn't reflect well on the rest of us if it ends up at market. Remember one in particular. Was doing laundry on the Queen down in P.A. some years back watching a pitch off ...I guess it was a boat, it floated.was pointy on one end and flat on the other...But the back deck was a horror of hydraulic fluid and dog shit and the crew looked like they had been rolling in it. Could have been a blowout but I don't think so.Filthy hands grabbing half scaled soft cohos, every now and then one would hit the deck. I couldnt believe they were taking the fish. These were going into the same totes as my cherry cohos. I know quality control has improved since then but that visual has stayed with me. There are just some things you can't unsee. My product is the best I can provide under any given circumstance and if I ever start to slack off I mentally reffer to that episode and it keeps things in perspective. 10 cent a lb. quality incentive would be nice but I'm not going to let the quality slide if I don't get it...It's personal after all.
Salty
2013-02-21 00:28:50
So, thank you SE AK for the question on quality. I think there are lots of tips out there that would help improve our already excellent handling in the troll fleet. One thing I do now which we didn't use to do is remove the salmon fleas. Just takes a second or so and then I don't have to scrub them off the sides of the brailer bags or slush tanks.
SE AK
2013-02-21 03:49:48
Thanks for the tip, I'll call Murray Pacific in the morning. As to splitting the vertibrae in the tail portion of the fish, I thought that was standard. Are there people who don't do that?
Salty
2013-02-21 03:54:35
Oh, right, this is the internet. Every troller always dresses every fish immediately including pressure bleeding.
Abundance
2013-02-21 04:32:11
Hah! I was thinking the same thing. I have never actually pressure bled a lot of fish. I have experimented with it when bored in the winter and spring, but in the rush of summer I haven't fooled with it yet. Also when I would get into a bite alone, I have sometimes left fish uncleaned for longer than is defensable. I also have a few fish quality stories that are too painful to bring back to mind at the moment. I am always learning how to do this thing a bit better, and this site is a great educational resource.
Trnaround
2013-02-21 16:19:08
Most probably know this but if you cut your hose tip at a 45 degree angle it will fit under the membrane better and you won't squirt yourself in the face quite as much and you can control the amount of water pressure better, you don't want to puff the fish up just get the blood out.
JYDPDX
2013-02-21 17:14:27
I have been implementing this method for several years now and would consider myself fairly proficient at the technique. It takes a critical amount of "feathering" or letting off the volume of water going into the fish to prevent obvious damage to the fish, membranes and flesh. I sold a couple days worth of coho last season to a friend who sells direct to customers in fillets. We noticed during the filleting process that there was a substantial amount, maybe 20-25% of fillets with "bruising" (blotches of blood in the flesh making some of the fillets look damaged) and went to work trying to solve the mystery. I finished his order and my commitment to getting him the fish he needed to fill his orders without determining the cause of the problem. I strongly believe it can be attributed to this style of pressure bleeding but I have no proof yet. I am now wary of using this method, which I once thought was the cats meow.
On a side note the "bruising or blotching" does not impact the flavor or texture really at all but cosmetically (for fillets) it is not ideal, it looks bad.
I have been working on implementing a pipette system as I believe it is substantially superior.
Now for a rant.
Similar to Garett, I have also been guilty of turning out some days of pretty sloppy fish that are anomalous to my standard. They were gladly accepted at the tender. There is a certain point where any rational minded person has to choose quantity over quality. If it means thousands of dollars there isnt even a dilemma. I am after all in this business to make a living. For me that point is relatively low and that is not my fault, that is on the processors for rewarding quantity and not quality. If I used a completely rational business mind, I would meet the plants standards and focus all of the surplus effort on putting more fish aboard. I actually ought to seriously consider this in protest to buyers not wanting to incentivise quality. Our processors clearly see no value in higher quality standards. Why should we? Why should half of us philanthropically sacrifice to negate the effects of the crappy fish that the other half of the fleet is turning in? Perhaps we are fools and wasting out time. This is the message I am getting from our processors.
I'll definitely keep my pipette/pressure bleed system in tact for when I want to eat one though.
SilverT
2013-02-21 21:24:48
Trnaround thanks & JYPDX, good points. There's some brutal honesty. You are penalized for delivering ultra-high quality fish in the form of lost pounds in a hot bite. The public doesn't demand ultra-high quality and the trickle-down effect means that the processors don't place enough value on it to make it worth the sacrifice for many. I like the tag idea, but it's one more thing to slow you down and it will cost you pounds. Pressure bleeding the wrong way is much worse than simply bleeding the fish by cutting a gill. I was warned against the pressure bleeding early on for the reasons you listed.
Unless someone's going to give a newcomer a demonstration of how to accomplish this without damaging the fish, they are going to have to experiment, including filleting a few fish afterward to observe the results. It won't do to simply assume the pressure is ok. Salty's description of the right pressure cracked me up and it's probably spot on to prevent blowing out the veins. We just need another description for folks who can't get a pee model or a pressure bleeding demo. Scroll to the bottom of the page on the attached link for the Washington State Troller's Association's video's on the subject, along with some pictures of hoses with pipettes and control valves.
http://www.washingtontrollers.org/cleaning.htm
Lane
Salty
2013-02-21 23:01:08
Silver T,
Wow, I am so amazed at the quality of the stuff that is getting posted here. And I apologize for posting a picture of of what it probably too much flow for bleeding through the backbone. We have adjustable flow and that picture is obviously rinsing off flow volume.
Those pictures by the Washington Troller's Association you posted are right on. After looking at it and taking the time to watch the videos every troller should know how to properly bleed a troll salmon. Thanks.
lone eagle
2013-02-21 23:42:35
Bare in mind that some very expensive gillnet fish are not cleaned on the boat , but back in town a couple of days later.
Kelper
2013-02-22 01:38:33
I've been the crewman on some pretty big days.. Not once did the quality suffer when the boat was putting up some very big numbers on kings and cohos. In fact, I'd put those fish up against the fish coming off of the lower volume producers. I was taught well though, and the captains were very strick on how the fish had to be cleaned.
Not sure sure too that I buy into the "pressure bleeding". Shooting water through a fish that is going to be frozen? How does that effect how well the fish holds up while frozen if it has water in it? Any real taste tests done on pressure bleeding versus conventional cleaning?
Abundance
2013-02-22 02:34:14
I know when I was a deckhand, we had consistantly perfect fish as well. Its when fishing alone, as I have most of my career, that I found problems keeping up. I guess if your going to do it right, you need a crew. I am going to have one from now on, and did most of last season.
I have have wondered some about what it does to a fish to be pressure bled then frozen. When icing, the water just drains out, with no blood left behind. It does improve the quality somewhat, not that regular bleeding proceedures are that far behind.
Salty
2013-02-22 03:18:49
Good comments, but I wonder what is meant by "big production days". On the real big days in my experience either production or quality is sacrificed. We almost always sacrificed production for quality. I am sure there is one day with a crew of three of us that we would have had nearly double if we hadn't cleaned every fish after running the gear. The lines, with fifty fathoms of wire were hammering on the way out. By the time we got the side landed and cleaned it seemed like it was forever. And we were slushing so the icing time was negligible.
But, that was nice kings, big coho. Handling small silvers is a lot quicker. I think we might have had a quarter more on my biggest day if we had been slushing round. But, that quarter would have been more coho than my biggest coho day in my first 8 years of power trolling. Good production for trollers is a relative term. What seems like a super day for some of us, like me now, is completely different than when we were producing. Nothing like having the best day you ever imagined with a good deck hand and finding the old guy fishing solo right outside of you doubled you.
Trnaround
2013-02-22 04:46:50
Good discussion, getting the blood out is the name of the game, the fish should be gill bled as soon as it is landed then cleaned before the remaining blood has a chance to clot up too much. Pressure bleeding is way of getting a little more blood out. The salt water that is in the veins isn't enough to make a negative difference in taste or freezing, not much difference in salinity than the blood being displaced but the blood has a negative effect on freezing and taste as we know. If it is done poorly though there goes the quality you are trying to improve upon.When you are in a good bite having a good system of cleaning the fish that were landed first and not piling new fish on top of old fish makes a big difference. I think it takes the same or less time to clean a fish with slight pressure bleeding because there is less time spent scraping and getting those belly veins clean. Most critically how long does the fish sit until you get too it , how warm is it that day and how soon do you get the fish in ice. Sometimes it gets pretty busy.
Salty
2013-02-22 05:08:49
I wish there was a like button on this thread. I would be pushing it all the time for posts. I completely agree with your post trnaroud. Well written, concise, right on.
yak2you2
2013-02-22 05:29:45
That is a good post Trnaround, but you left out a critical part. Time before delivery. To many guys lengthen out a trip longer than they should. Even on ice, the clock is ticking. 5 and 6 day trip fish aren't the same as day old fish, I don't care what anybody says. If more guys would commit to delivering every other day, it would improve quality tremendously. Sometimes it means bringing in a light load, or shortening your range, but it is what it is.
Abundance
2013-02-22 06:05:03
I have to say, yak, delivering every other day would make a lot of the best fishing grounds to remote to work. Making a reasonably short trip is vital, but getting them quickly chilled and deeply iced is just as important. Without a vastly enhanced tender system, two day trips are impossible for most of us here. We simply couldn't afford to leave sight of town, much less fish the rich Helm Point or Forrester Island grounds.
JYDPDX
2013-02-22 07:09:26
Yak - again with your skiff perspective. The trick is to plan ahead and work with your tender on scheduling deliveries. I could pitch off a two day trip to a tender in my area and it might still be 4-5 days till it gets to the plant. Or I could coordinate my delivery and fish 5 days and get them to the plant on the 6th day. There is no difference between the fishing sitting on ice in my hold or sitting on ice in a tote. Other boats that have better insulation and can keep fish colder even than in tote ice on a tender waiting for the plant. Why would they pitch off every two days, it would reduce the quality of the fish and reduce their productivity?
yak2you2
2013-02-22 07:11:09
I know. I believe the vast majority do a really good job icing too. Odds are I would eat any one of those long trip fish and love it. But I've seen long trip fish, well iced ones, and they just aren't the same. Don't get me wrong, they're perfectly edible, and in resonable condition, but if were fleshing out ways to improve, this has to be considered. I hope nobody feels picked on, because thats not what I'm trying to do. As you say, we have to be able to reach remote spots. But maybe a better thought out tendering scheme? Or some other means of cutting the holding time down? My concern is this. If you have a busy year going on, 5-6 day fish get to the plant, run into a backlog, and wind up iced for another 3 days until they make it into the freezer. If we really want stand out product, we have to develop a means of cutting that down somehow.
yak2you2
2013-02-22 07:19:51
Havn't trolled out of a skiff for 10 years JYDPDX. You don't have to take personal offense to everything I say. Fresher is better, no one can argue that. I've gotten so spoiled, I don't even like them frozen. The way we do things is working, and the product is good, ok? I'm just wondering if we couldn't make it better? Freezer packers designated for remote areas?
Abundance
2013-02-22 07:42:36
One of the things that the chum fishery has done (I know, I know) is put a big cash infusion straight into the tender fleet. With ikura selling at about ninety dollars a kilo, (http://www.catalinaop.com/Frozen_Ikura_1_Kg_p/sushi_roe_3b2.htm) keeping those round fish at the perfect temperature is a must. My favorite tender was recalled to Neets this year, and when delivering to him he told me that they had put some absurd 6 figure sum into getting the boat rigged with the necessarily goods. They put the fish into their heavily insulated hold, all species with RSW and ice. He even gave everybody RSW to chill their fish down faster and keep the slush colder. I don't know if this is normal or we have always been shorted on service out here. When this chum craze dies down, it would be nice to see if they keep those upgrades for the ocean fleet.
yak2you2
2013-02-22 07:58:55
Take a look at the price difference between freezer trollers and icers, that, demostrates the difference freezing immediately makes. All I'm saying is, is it possible to find funds to refit packers that would help the ice fleet put out an EVEN better quality product, and get a better price. This would solve the logistic issue in remote places, then we work on shorter turn arounds on the guys closer to the plants. RSW has made a huge difference in lots of fish, the competition is steady making monumental changes in how they do things. Can't hurt to wonder if there isn't room for change in our fishery too.
Trnaround
2013-02-22 14:21:18
Decisions, decisions, major part of the trip. God bless tenders. When do you unload?....When the tender is going by. Hard to stop fishing but sometimes they don't come on a regular basis so get rid of the fish when you can and go get some more (learned that the hard way, must put that on the what I learned thread). I envy the guys with Sat phones (not really) but they can stay in touch with the tenders which is a real advantage in deciding when and where to sell. You are right Yak getting them sold in good condition is another key thing in keeping up quality . Must go back to bleeding, though the difference between troll caught fish and gill net or seined fish is that we have the opportunity to improve the quality by bleeding. In the case of gill net or seine fish the blood stays in the fish and processing doesn't get it out. It would be nice to see improved tender service but more realistically learning to use the tenders the best you can is more likely to get the results you are looking for.
Interesting thread. I pipette bleed and freeze every salmon onboard. Occasionally somone would leave the pipette in the fish too long or have the pressure too high and the result is the fish being "pumped up". Basically the flesh gets pressurized and rigid similar to a fish in rigor. This really bothered me because I figured the fish were bruised along the backbone and looked awful when filleted. One day we had a coho that was really badly "pumped up" so I filleted it immediately. It looked and felt fine... no bruising. We put it in the cooler and ate it for dinner. The fish was perfect. I guess a little salt water injection didn't hurt.
A while later we had another coho get really badly over pressurized. This time I froze the fish as I normally do. A few days later I brought it up and thawed and filleted it. The flesh along the backbone for about a 3" wide strip was complete mush. We ate that one for dinner also and the mush was less noticable after it was cooked, but still it was not up to the level of quality that we're shooting for.
The conclusion is that it is imperative to not over-pressurize the fish when pipette bleeding, especially when freezing them (most of our iced summer troll fish are frozen at the plants). I now "release" the few of our fish that are over-pressurized.
The flip side of the story is that I eat my properly bled and blast frozen salmon all winter long. It is unbelievable how perfect and fresh those fish are when you thaw them out even nearly a year after they have been caught. No "fish" odor, they smell like the ocean and not have a trace of blood. I am a firm believer in the process.
My guideline for pipette bleeding is: 1) that the pipette pressure is the same as the fish natural blood pressure. So it doesn't shoot out of the pipette further than what the blood squirts out of a fish when you cut the gill, and 2) you watch the blood come out of the fish and remove the pipette when it turns light pink or clear.
my 2 cents,
Jonathan
Abundance
2013-02-22 18:00:18
Thank you for the insight. I remember turning a coho into a balloon the first time I experimented with it. I probably ate it, but I cannot remember now. One thing that came of my families brief and ill fated attempt at direct marketing was our acquisition of a $4,000 industrial vacuum packer. We did up whole fish, fillets, steaks, whatever we thought people might buy. We still have the thing, and you can keep frozen fish for years after they have been vacuum packed in it without any real drop in quality.
Kelper
2013-02-22 20:36:28
This is my experience, and feel free to tell me to shut up. I eat vacuum packed salmon, that has been troll dressed the traditional style 2x a week, for the last bunch of years.
Fishy taste comes from fat and excessive blood, when frozen. They key to any salmon tasting incredible out of the freezer is to follow these steps:
Take out of freezer
Thaw for 10-15 minutes
Take out of bag
Shave skin and fat off while still 98% frozen. Gloves keep the hands from burning on the rock hard fillet.
Bake, fry, whatever after the fillet thaws.
IF you thaw it in the bag, the fat/juices "marinate" in a fishy taste to the thawing product, as I believe fat goes "fishy" first in the freezer. Not good. If you thaw with fat/skin on, the fat juices seep into part of the fillet, and you get what you have. That kind of flies in the face of the fatty copper river marketing stuff, eh? Fresh fat is good though!
Following those simple instructions that a top chef at a lodge taught me, has kept meat eating year old salmon fillets. It's good stuff. I've never had traditional troll dressed fish taste fishy or be mushy when I followed the instructions above.
Another tip that I learned is to never, ever wash your fillets with fresh water, before freezing. Freshwater kills salmon. Only salt water, and limited amounts if I absolutely have to. I usually do not even wash a troll dressed salmon fillet before getting it vaccum packed, as their is no need if you dressed it properly. Water penetrates the flesh, and it does what it does when frozen. Expands and mushifies. (is that a word?)
Anyway, that's why I was asking about putting water into a fish.
Abundance
2013-02-22 21:27:22
Good advice, for a regular vacuum packer, which what almost all of us have around. I don't really know how our machine does it, but unless a pinbone pokes a whole in the bag we don't have to worry about the fat or anything. It quite different than the fish if eaten from a regular vacuum packer. On ours, you put the fish in a big pressure chamber, first pulling all of the gasses out of the fish ( you actually see air boiling out of the flesh), then lightning fast high pressure to force all of the air out of the package, then melting the bag shut to seal it. Its quite a handy tool, and we often lend it out to people, either in trade or just to be neighborly. Your more than welcome to try it out Joel, its kind of neat to watch do its thing.
Salty
2013-02-23 01:10:56
Old man peeing.
I try to be honest on this thread, without saying everything. Frozen coho salmon is just fine, as is chum salmon. Both of these salmon are relatively dry compared to sockeye or Chinook. Kind of like a rose or Chablis compared to a Syrah or Merlot.
Truth is that after 6 decades of eating frozen king salmon I refuse to let anyone freeze king salmon for my consumption. We have a nice big vacuum sealer etc. but that is for guests who want to freeze their salmon. Frozen king salmon is just fine but it is not the same as fresh to me. Not to diss either frozen at sea or frozen fillets, or frozen headed and gutted at the plants. All good stuff if well handled and chilled immediately. And the way to get paid for your good handling is as Sven and some of my other young friends have done, freeze em at sea. But, there is a reason winter kings, which almost all are eaten fresh, go for up to more than $10.00 per pound.
I have eaten frozen kings from guys who froze it at 40 below and kept it there, I have eaten it from frozen fillets, and while a fine tasting salmon, it just doesn't have that extra rich sweet zing of a fresh one. If I am going to preserve and eat king salmon later we can it. Not the same as fresh but better than frozen to me. And then there is that slightly smoked white canned Chinook.
But then I live in Sitka and can pretty much go catch a fresh one any month of the year so I am spoiled. And my taste buds got fried a few years ago so what do I know. But I am getting hungry for a fresh one. Ate a whole can last night. In fact I think I will go catch one next week. That first fresh one of the year tastes so good.
If I was living somewhere down south and couldn't catch a fresh king or afford to buy one, which I probably couldn't, then I would choose a frozen troll caught king, coho, or chum, depending on price, and who caught it. Probably would mean choosing a frozen at sea from Sven.
carojae
2013-02-25 20:42:33
I've never used anything but the deck hose (mine is 3/4").
After I've cut the fish and removed the guts and before I've scraped the blood out of the back, I cut a little incision in the blood line to the backbone nearest the gill plate and just hold the hose over that cut. The blood will start finding it's way out of veins and soon will turn to clear water.
From there I cut the remainder of the blood membrane and scrape out the rest of the blood. Rinse...
ZaneSOS
2013-12-20 12:12:09
Value is in customer perception. I've long been bothered by the lack of compensation for quality, as well as the lack of quality in what I (or rather friends) bought in stores. I've been fishing various fisheries in S.E.A.K. for over 25 years. I now live in Portland OR, and still fish up there in the summers. I always had stuff in my freezer (even after being frozen for a year) that tasted better than anything I sampled from the random market. You all know this story. I've also seen soggy alligator fish bent in half in brailer bags. I'm telling this story because I am trying to change things a bit.
I am probably not allowed to give the name of my new business on here; I won't just in case. The information I want to give is this: I will begin buying pressure bled (PB) Sockeye salmon in the Juneau and Auke Bay, AK areas this summer. We may also have a buyer further north soon. I am beginning with gillnet caught fish, but intend to implement tiers, of which the troll-caught PB would be the top tier. I will be paying a premium for these fish because I have a growing customer base (American and Japanese markets are showing serious interest) that is ready to buy PB salmon based solely on my descriptions and passion about this. I very much want to give us a better price for these premium fish that represent the Wild Salmon industry so well. I will be a stickler about quality. You can always sell lower quality fish to the big processor, and high-grade the heck out of what you PB and slush for me. I do want fish that are within 3 days of catch, slushed not frozen. Run the water like an old man with prostate issues (slow as possible - avoid bursting the capillaries).
I assert that blood has a very strong flavor. When it is removed, only the delicate flavor of the fish remains. My customers are eager to try this in 2014. If things go as planned in 2014, the business will exponentiate. I will keep quality high by setting a capacity cap on each processing plant. The businesses will be set up to run independently, and I will be in charge of all quality control. There is a dramatic marketing strategy that I will not go into. I'm not trying to be self-indulgent. I just want you to know that change is in the air. If I can give you a fraction of the amount of confidence and optimism I feel about this, you will have a great day. I really hope this thing works. The thing is, so do my customers... Here's to the 2014 season!
Trnaround
2013-12-22 15:45:23
ZaneSOS, Your plan sounds interesting. I am sure logistics and locations are some of your big issues right now among other details in setting up a stream lined supply line to the buyer. The concept of getting the highest quality pb fish to market sounds great. After reading the discussion above, why are you starting with gill net caught fish? Most gill net caught fish are not bled immediately (usually they are dead for quite awhile before landing) so it seems that pb is going to be less effective once the clotting has happened. Bleeding the fish immediately and getting them cleaned and iced right away is why troll fish are of higher quality not just pressure bleeding. Also gill net fish in SE are usually caught in terminal areas which means they are not prime ocean bright fish. Let me say this, I am not trying to be negative in any way on your approach but it would make sense to start with the best fish possible and that is usually closer to the ocean. Tapping in to the high quality troll catch is not a logistically easy thing to do because of the remote areas these fish are caught but that is where the best fish are going to come from. Anyway good luck with the endeavor and I am encouraged with the market you are developing. Oh and welcome to the forum. ;)
Salty
2013-12-22 19:48:31
I think well handled gill-net fish can be good quality. And, I believe improving the quality of any of our Alaska salmon, from where we harvest it, to how we handle it raises the value for all of us. Ocean bright, individually handled, live bled, immediately chilled, processed as soon as possible is undoubtedly the best. But most of our Alaska salmon can not be harvested and handled this way. No way we could have caught all our salmon this year, or any year in the ocean, one at a time and bled them all.
I made a motion years ago on a salmon quality task force that we require immediate bleeding and chilling in all our Alaska salmon fisheries. Someone seconded it. The chair called an immediate recess and several top fisheries people explained to me that I needed to withdraw the motion. There was no way we could immediately live bleed or chill most of our salmon in Alaska. On the bleeding, a good percentage of gill net fish are already dead by the time they come over the rail. There is too much volume in seining to individually bleed every fish. In some seine sets in recent years you might have over 50,000 pinks in the seine at a time. Sets of over 10,000 pinks are relatively common now.
On the chilling, while we have made great progress since I made that motion, we still do not have the infrastructure in every salmon fishery in Alaska to provide the ice for immediate chilling for every fish. Take a look at the latest cover of National Fisherman magazine. There are a bunch of pink salmon on the deck. When I think immediate chilling, I am thinking within 5-10 minutes of the fish dying. Who knows how long these fish will lay on deck before being off loaded into a chilled tank on the tender. And, having seined for several years, they will still be fine quality. Not the same as an individually handled, live bled, immediately chilled troll caught pink, but still a great dining treat.
So, I withdrew the motion. Nevertheless we have made great advances in my fishing career on Alaska salmon handling throughout the state. In SE seine fisheries some of the companies require computerized records of the hold temps from the set through the time on the seiner, through the time on the tender, until processed. Every skippers delivery has a printout of his hold temps. Bill Webber, a gillnetter in Cordova is making great strides in setting up chilling and handling systems for his high quality direct marketed Copper River salmon. Quality testing on the effects of different brailer bag sizes, tender handling, etc. are providing important learning tools for Bristol Bay gillnetters.
After all these years I have decided there are several critical components to improving salmon quality:
1. The attitude of the fisherman;
2. The attidude of the processor;
3. Price incentives for quality;
4. Price penalties or product rejection for poor quality;
5. Consumer awareness and choices to pay more for better quality;
6. Trace-ability from the fisherman to the consumer like the "Thisfish" program.
Finally, Last night we got a nice package from one of my processors with a jar of smoked canned sockeye, and smoked canned king salmon. I had a gillnet friend over and we sampled the smoked canned sockeye and a can of smoked white king salmon from another processor. Undoubtedly, both were from gillnet caught fish. Both products looked and smelled great. We all agreed that the sockeye had a more appealing red color. On the taste test though the white king was preferred by all of us because it was less salty, much moister (melted in our mouths) and had a richer lighter flavor.
Then there is the home pack we have of canned troll caught white king. Mixing a little of the smoked white king with it makes an excellent base for a dip, sandwich spread, or a killer salmon loaf. Unfortunately I am often eating right out of the jar which gets me in trouble.
Merry Christmas to all.
ZaneSOS
2014-03-16 20:05:56
This is a great board! I really appreciate your help. If my vision is realized, I will have the pleasure of seeing you get representative pricing. I've been working on development for the last couple months. I'll answer questions I noticed, and probably ask a couple too.
First, cold logistics is a bear with titanium teeth. I am developing cold/fresh and frozen logistics plans. Lot of options, lots of prices. The trouble spot is small order shipping of frozen product. It looks like a FedEx or maybe UPS contract is the way to go. Luckily, I sell from Portland OR, which knocks a day off the shipping time from AK. I'm air freighting in to PDX for now. Input and ideas would be great on this, and on anything.
I'm targeting gillnetters as they are most accessible to me, and traditionally get a bit lower price. A better price is a stronger motivation there, as incremental changes are more magnified at that price point ($2.05/lb vs. $3.15 for example). The proposition is that if we pull nets frequently, more fish come out alive and can be PB and stored separately - no dirty brailers bending and descaling the fish while exposing it to bacteria. Totes are preferable in my experience, though I never close my mind. Fish that don't fit the quality benchmark go on down the old trail into the brailers with all the bacteria and other 'traditions'. Those would be any fish that are net-damaged or have begun to change, so, many of them. I am really interested in the best of the batches. When the fish first arrive they are at their peak, and then rapidly turn into alligators. The peak fish are desirable, and the only ones I'll buy. Total PB conversion of a gillnet boat would be a real feat of thinking and nature. I know that not every troll-caught fish is specimen, though a much higher percentage are.
I'm very interested in troll-caught fish as well. (I'm trying to track a guy down in fact; that's why I'm here today. Dave, you there?) I'm interested in all PB salmon. PB is the cornerstone of my value proposition to consumers. Some PB troll-caught is the benchmark of high quality.
I'm buying PB gillnet caught Sockeye and? this season out of Lynn Canal and Taku for three entities. I'm buying for a company that simply cannot meet the demand they have created, along with my company and another. The unlimited demand, self-branding opportunity, premium price and my inexpensive, ready-made kits to do PB, will be the incentives I offer to switch to PB.
I'm starting with a small number of boats, and will be boat-tracking the fish so the customer can go to my site and enter a number from their order. This will take them to a boat biography - the story of the boat. This (optional) boat-tracking is how a boat can build a brand/reputation. Eventually, a bidding system may be employed. This gives boats a chance to benefit financially from the strength of their brand (reputation).
Those are the fishing-end details of the matter.
I look forward to more great info, and send wishes for a spectacular season. It sounds like Spring in the Pacific Northwest is set to be a great start!
Zane Luther
Salt of the Sea...LLC
jskzl@yahoo.com for now
541-231-6835
ZaneSOS
2014-11-23 03:58:25
I've been away for awhile, learning this process. You may recall that I gillnet and emphasize PB Sockeye, that I am working to establish a distinct PB market that pays a premium for proper PB fish, and that I am not exclusive to gillnet-caught fish. It is all working out. I am slowly creating a premium market - keeping supply level so the market does not flood before demand grows. The exclusivity of PB fish secures our premium price, So..
So, I learned a trick or two this summer that I am not sure everyone else knows. As a fisherman, I have the reflex to hold onto any potential secret advantage I can. As a man in the business of promoting the quality and benefits of Pressure Bleeding fish, helping fishermen to self-market, and promote overall fishing ethics and sustainability, it is essential to share information that helps the quality of the process. The second guy wins today.
The first development I found was tail bleeding. Some of my friends working hard to do the best PB they can have mentioned that they have residual blood in the tail of the fish along the spine. Winston, of Taku River Reds, showed me a little trick that helps get the majority of that tail blood out:
Take this step after initial kidney removal step, but before any rough scraping of the spine.
Using a 2 to 2.5 inch veterinary syringe (for salmon, longer for halibut) with the tip dulled or removed, and a low flow rate, bleed the tail.
Insert the tip of the syringe parallel to the spine at the tail end. "What?"
If one looks down the length of a dressed (head off) fish from the head end, there are visible holes in the rear vertebrae that almost form a tunnel through the spine toward the back of the fish. These are the same last vertebrae that are usually cut to get kidney remnants out.
Insert the syringe into this vertebral tunnel. As you insert you will feel two points of slight resistance. When you pass through the second point, stop. You can then watch the tail blood flow out now. It is a beautiful sight. Then I use a toothbrush to get all of the kidney out of the rear spine area. Upon fillet, a few of the fish may have some trace residual blood along the spine that had begun to coagulate. Rinse that off, it is not in the meat. The fish will pass the test below.
The real test I found to check PB quality is when I vacuum pack the fish. Traditional fish or poorly pressure bled fish release any blood to the visible surface of vacuum bags. It looks awful next to PB fish. I have so many photos... and video. You can also compress a fish fillet from head towards tail, and blood will show if it is there. This is rough on fish though.
ZaneSOS
2014-11-24 00:34:46
A friend asked me about what I do to regulate pressure in my system. I'm still working to master this, but here is what I do that seems to be working. I will try to attach a horrible drawing I made to show what I'm writing. It may do more harm than good, but I didn't get a picture that shows this part of the system well enough this year:
This year I used a Flojet 4305 pump with a pressure regulator built in. Similar pumps should work. It puts out about 5 gpm at about 40 psi. This goes into a potable water hose. (The 2015 year's system is going to use industrial components) A trick I learned in Ag to balance pressure is to create a looped system. This is easy to do, and I'll describe it using easy to find pars. All hoses are the crappy potable water hoses in this example.
The main hose from the pump gets the water to the work area in one line. Then attach a Y connector to the hose. Pick a right length second hose to make it from the Y connector to the first of these items, each item is fed by another Y connector (with a shut-off valve) in the line and separated by another short length of hose:
One hose will have a tube with a pipette. What I used was a fitting at the Y connector that shrank the diameter dawn to about 1/2". Then I used a food-grade Tygon tubing to run to the pipette section. There I used a piece of surgical tubing about 6" long over the Tygon and over the pipette (Trim the pipette to allow the 'pee stream' flow volume, and use the valve to control pressure - It will work if the rest of these steps are used). The surgical tubing absorbs most variations in pressure should they occur. Pressure and volume are controlled by each Y connector (I plan to use better y connectors - they rust out of commission in a couple days).
The second hose has the same set-up, but instead of the pipette I use a 2.5" veterinary syringe with a trimmed tip. This is the one for bleeding the tail. I use a zip tie to fasten the tubing and syringe together because when I turn on the Y connector to this one it can shoot right off the boat. It is important to adjust the Y connectors.
The third hose has a spray head on it to rise the fish and work area. I use a twist-open brass head. Sudden use of the spray head can drop pressure.
The final step, the one that balances the pressure is a return hose. This hose goes from the Y connector at the last of the three work hoses back to the first Y connector - the one from the main pump feed. This , along with the valves on the Y connectors, will equalize the pressure in the system, and allow better control of it.
Air in the lines can cause sudden bursts of high pressure to burst the tiny capillaries in the fish and leave awful looking spots. Some spots are in the tissue of the body cavity and can be carefully removed. Others are in the meat, and are there to stay.
I don't have a photo of this set up handy, so I drew a picture of what I'm describing. It might be worse than my written description. If it is at all unclear or if you would like more info or to share ideas, I am happy to help and to learn.
fveureka
2014-11-24 01:00:53
I recall on the pressure, Salty saying using a waterpressure like an old guy peeing applied to the fish spine process. I help by pushing the side vein blood out using a rubbermaid small sqeegy.