Attempting to salvage promotion discussion
Once and Future
2013-01-21 23:36:48
This would appear to be a good time to bury the hatchet in my "Mandatory Everything" thread, and start a new thread about the troll-caught salmon promotion discussion that evolved. Below is part of a post from the other thread to get the ball re-rolling, in case anyone feels like it:
I am not a PR expert, and I'm not sure we can afford it. But you can see the insidious efforts of a big-money PR program, such as the farmed salmon industry employs. One example is the cooking show we were all a victim of here a couple weeks ago. Incidentally, we thought we all did a good job of fighting back to tell the show's producers our story - and we got zero satisfaction - correct?
Of course, there are examples of how some of the trollers out of Sitka have found a way to tell their own stories to specific markets. I know if we reject the project as "too hard" we are pretty much conceding we have a short future."
Abundance
2013-01-24 07:04:14
I just came back from several weeks in the Lake Michigan area. I took pictures off all of the salmon for sale in the stores (I will share those later), and talked with all of my friends and relatives there. Practically every store had chum products for sale, and Michigan had a much better selection than Wisconsin. And nobody has a clue that salmon are supposed to taste good. A Trader Joe's in southern Michigan was selling shamefully freezer burnt dark Wild Alaska chums right next to a beautifully colored and vacuum packed Chilean farm raised cardboard. I should mention that Great Lakes salmon taste like crap and didn't help the local reputation. I took a few hundred pounds of salmon down there, and converted several dozen people into fish lovers. Just one bite of winter caught king glazed and baked with stone ground mustard and honey got people to wolf down whole fillets. My point being, people need to know the stuff is worth the money. The ASMI should be providing prepared samples to the public in major cities, like you see in the larger stores when they roll out a new product. I would gladly donate a days catch to the cause. Getting more people to buy salmon in any quantity would add up tremendously on a national scale. We need to justify the ten dollars a pound for some striped chums. The twenty three dollars a pound for a sliver of old frozen halibut is never going to be okay though.
Salty
2013-01-24 09:35:50
Well, I am kind of reluctant to add anything since I got criticized for it and my intentions were misinterpreted last time. But, I didn't help accomplish the few small improvements in this industry I have had a hand in by being easily discouraged or intimidated.
First, every little bit helps. Every fisherman, every fishing family has a whole tree of friends and family across this country to help spread the word on the value of their product. Some of us through luck and persistence have been able to have our fishing operations written up in places like the NY Times. You could too, keep plugging away, keep telling your story, keep learning about what makes your idea work.
Use the modern camera's and video to record how you carefully handle each individual wild Alaskan salmon and how that handling differentiates it from net caught or farmed salmon. Write your relatives and tell them why they should buy troll caught salmon whenever they have the chance. Take your business card with a picture of your boat and one of the brightest most beautiful salmon you ever caught and leave it at every restaurant and seafood counter you go to.
Cultivate a relationship with your marketer, whether it is SPC, Trident, Glacier Seafoods, or who ever and ask them what you can do to help them sell your fish. Give them pictures of your operation, your fish. So that when ASMI or your processor promotes Alaska salmon there is a picture of a troll caught salmon or a troller or your trolling family.
There are bigger forces out there that complicate the big picture, but that does not mean every one of us shouldn't do our best to promote our wonderful product, our careful handling, the family operated small boat, small community sustaining, ecologically and carbon sensible fishery that we have.
I tried to attach a photo but it said the "Board Attachment Quota has been reached" whatever that means.
Kelper
2013-01-24 15:34:54
The fact that the brand "wild alaska" is being associated with freezer burnt striped chums really grates me. Talk about shooting ourselves in the foot! Somebody buys that, or most chum products, and they are instantly turned off to Alaska salmon. I'm sure the middle men love it, cause it's cheap and they can turn a big profit on it,all while calling it wild alaskan salmon! Some ininformed consumer (like 90% of them don't know the difference) who once had a fillet of king will buy that and then never buy "Alaska" salmon again, unless it has "Copper River" in it. We need to get a brand, market that crap out of it, and have very strict standards to that brand.. because "wild alaska" has been cheapened.
You are spot on Garrett in saying that we need to be providing prepared samples. I think just promo fresh king/coho in the right hands can open up our fresh market to a much greater amount. Do we need the short term pain of a quota of 5k "promotion" kings that some volunteers could catch in May/June, and a specific marketing program could distribute to key population centers and markets we want a share of? If we give samples to every culinary school, major caterers, Britney Spears, etc and get them to actually eat the good stuff and they are hooked. My wife is an east coaster, who hated salmon before she met me. Bad salmon is so bad that once someone has it, they never want to try it again.. and that is what's killing us. Now she eats my troll caught salmon 2x a week; and being knocked up, keeps talking about how studies have proven that eating salmon during pregnancy gives you a smarter baby. (not sure where she found that info, but sounds good to me!) The reality is that 95% of the population would love fresh king/coho enough to buy it again. We have a fantastic product. 5% of the population would love terminal chum enough to buy it again!
Salty
2013-01-24 18:49:46
Here is a thought for those of you wanting to get more troll caught king salmon to a better market for a better price. The biggest white table cloth restaurant day in the United States is Mothers Day. This year it is May 12th. Which means that we have very few fresh SE Kings available for this market. This is before Copper River comes in. It is at the time of the year when the SE kings have moved into the shallows all over the region, particularly on the coast and when they are full of krill which makes them o so sweet.
Why don't we have a special opening for one or two days inside the surfline on about the 9th or 10th and get some of these beautiful tasty fish into this market? Allocate up to 5,000 fish from the summer quota for it.
If there is support for this kind of proposal I could write it up.
And actually terminal chum can be very tasty. A lighter dryer flavor but still good when well handled.
[attachment=0]Winter King Feb 6th 2002-001.jpg[/attachment]
FV_Wild_Card
2013-01-24 19:16:10
Something to consider.
AKDFG says Trollers caught 9,545,807 pounds of kings and cohos combined this year. US population 311,591,917. Thats enough salmon to provide 0.03% of the population with 1 POUND YEARLY to a completely domestic market.
With all troll fish combined (adding chum, pinks, and a dash of sockeye) there's 14,961,218 pounds of product. So at the very best 0.05% of the US can get 1 pound per year.
It's very little product to market, and that's the problem IMHO.
Interesting read
http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=20010630&slug=copper30
A similiarly localized and highly publicicized spectacle may be profitable. But if it were, how much would it profit the fisherman and why has it not been done already?
Abundance
2013-01-24 19:37:29
I didn't mean to impugn chums quality, and in fact most of the stores where selling quite nice bright keta or at least decently packaged product. I do think that a person has to have a working knowledge of the difference between salmon species and an idea of how to prepare them to make chums come out as something more than passable. And when freezer burnt, I doubt that you could make a starving cat like them. I know that at Horrock's Farmers market in southern Lansing, they had whole chum fillets[attachment=1]IMAG_0001.jpg[/attachment][attachment=0]IMAG_0002.jpg[/attachment] for sale, and they seemed to be moving. I agree, Wild Card, the troll product is small enough to pretty much be unknown to the general public. I was thinking more on a statewide level, or even whole North Pacific. We may not always get along with other gear groups, but we all have good stuff that deserves a better domestic market. As you pointed out, there is more than enough people to support us all if they liked our product. Your idea, Mr. Jordan, is pretty much exactly what I had in mind during our discussion on changes to the troll fishery. Something that takes advantage of our strengths as a fishery, that we are fishing when nobody else is and that we have low production/high quality. It wouldn't take but a chunk of the upper class of one major city to take everything we could produce in the spring at much higher dollar figures than we have seen so far.
Thorne Isl.
2013-01-24 19:47:14
Great subject! I have been pondering this same subject as I am starting out.
I am maybe thinking to small, but to start, what about getting a trolling salmon website (like Trolling Wild Alaska Salmon) going for all the good information we have on our salmon? Pictures, stories from trollers, recipes, medical benefits, the lifestyle of trolling, difference in wild alaska salmon and farmed salmon. With the search engines today it wouldn't be to hard to get this information out to all types of people. Would be cheap advertising.
It is a information world, and this needs to get out to the public. Knowledge is power.
Just thinking....
Abundance
2013-01-24 19:50:42
Hah! I can post pictures again. Here is a few more salmon product pictures from my trip. these looked pretty good. [attachment=5]IMAG_0004.jpg[/attachment] Anybody ever try these pink salmon burgers from Trident?[attachment=4]IMAG_0005.jpg[/attachment] these are also chums, according to the ingredients. [attachment=3]IMAG_0006.jpg[/attachment] From bottom to top, sockeyes cohos and chums at Trader Joe's. [attachment=2]IMAG_0011.jpg[/attachment] Somebody should be ashamed of themselves. A closer look at one of those chums.[attachment=1]IMAG_0013.jpg[/attachment] On one final note that I cannot keep to myself, ice fishing is an absolute blast!!![attachment=0]IMAG_0017.jpg[/attachment]
Salty
2013-01-24 19:58:04
Rowley, who has a knack for marketing, figures if he can persuade his friends to supply fresh fish to restaurants everyone will make more money. But fresh fish requires careful handling. The catch has to be gutted and iced as soon as it's caught, not left unrefrigerated. Gentle treatment - not throwing - is needed to avoid bruises that hurt the texture.
So, what are a couple of the ingredients here:
1. Having a distinct product (Copper River King)
2. Having it marketed (incorrectly) as the "first Alaska salmon of the season".
The catch has to be gutted and iced as soon as it's caught, not left unrefrigerated. Gentle treatment - not throwing - is needed to avoid bruises that hurt the texture.
Doesn't that sound like what we do in the troll fishery? And our fish are not caught in a river in a gillnet. So intrinsically we have a better product, we can, if we tweak our fishery just a bit, not only beat Copper River to the punch earlier and also fill in the mother's day market.
Lets come up with a distinct name. "Spring Kings" for Mom.
Without a persistent effort to make proposals and major lifting at the BOF two different times from yak to yak our spring season would close on April 15th and our hatchery kings caught in the winter would be added on to the summer instead of the winter. Thanks Casey.
I knew Jon Rowley back in the day. Seemed like we served on at least one group together. My impression was that he was a real smart guy, interesting to visit with on a variety of topics.
[attachment=0]Annika with Chinook.jpg[/attachment]
I sent a PM to Jon last night about the quota being filled for attachments and he upped the board quota. Thanks Jon.
FV_Wild_Card
2013-01-24 20:02:14
Thorne, that would only benefit the retailers.
FV_Wild_Card
2013-01-24 20:05:15
"Spring Kings" is better. Anything but "Troll Caught". Sounds too close to trawl and the word "troll", like in faery tales. Not appetizing.
Kelper
2013-01-24 20:30:07
I like the idea of an opening in May. I think we have the possibilty to catch a whole lot more than 5000 kings in 2 days if we go outside the surf line. Don't they estimate 10k a day for the July opener? Why not do a series of 2 day openers inside the surf line in May. It'd promote fresh (2 day fish) product, keep from flooding the market, and give the guys who don't live near a hatchery opening a shot at some of those treaty fish that are swimming by.
I'm still torn on the Chum issue.. I've eaten a lot of salmon, and zero chum lands in my personal freezer. I've given dime bright chum a chance and every time I do, I vow never to keep one again. It's cheap, so they are pushing it hard, but is it killing our king/coho market because it's turning off people to Alaskan salmon? Nothing is worse than taking a bite of bad salmon. Buy some of that bagged "alaskan" chum and try it side by side to the farmed salmon we are supposed to be superior to. I'm curious to hear the outcome.
In my opinion, we should be spending our time/money increasing fresh market demand for our kings, and at the same time be marketing our frozen coho. Frozen coho fillets are excellent, and if you skin 8 month old coho fillets before cooking, and scrape off the fat, it tastes about 95% as good as the day it was pulled out of the ocean. I'm not a college aged kid, but have recently went back to school. I've been debating the management vs marking program at uas SE. I think i'm learning towards the marketing program with all this talk going on here.
Abundance
2013-01-24 20:41:37
I agree wholeheartedly, Wild Card. Not a good term for marketing. I actually saw some chums down there last year that were being marketed as "Icy Strait Keta", not a half bad name. Maybe "Winter Salmon" or something of that nature. One of the problems that I have seen is that there is no marketing or push going on. These fish are quietly dumped on the market, and left to sell or not on the hope that somebody buying a ham looks over in the seafood section and decides that they want salmon instead. The sheer number of shoppers is amazing. Living up here, we often loose sight of how many people actually live in a city. I was somewhat overwhelmed by the knowledge that if I went down there and put up a sign saying "Alaska Salmon for sale", I actually cannot imagine how I couldn't sell all that I had. I know some people, and this is probably illegal so no names, who take fish down and sell them. One guy that I heard about is a seiner deckahand. He takes his wages in fish, which he freezes up and sells down south for much more than deckhands wages. Another guy takes a few freezers of pinks down to rural Montana and sells everything he has almost as soon as he gets there. I really think that even a moderate advertising campaign and a decent stock in the stores, putting good simple recipes in the packaging, those things could really help out a lot. I think that most marketing and pushes for salmon take place in Seattle, and we have a whole nation out there that is almost untouched. I am sure that there are many factores that have prevented the buyers from breaking open the markets, but I would be curious to know what they are. I started writing this before Kelper wrote his post, but I have to say that I agree that they should not be the fish that the public gets started out with. Canned smoked, or used in other dishes would be just fine, but I did advise my friends down there to buy pinks. They were much cheaper and better eating. I would never buy a chum at ten dollars a pound, that's for sure.
Thorne Isl.
2013-01-24 20:56:46
After reading back I agree troll is not the word to use.
Am I missing something about marketing? I though we are wanting to educate people about wild alaska salmon. How does opening a early chinook season educate people to buy our chinooks? Information first is what the public needs to make a proper purchase. Just throwing more fish out there at a specific time will not help people buy more fish.
ADVERTISING?
AK
JYDPDX
2013-01-24 21:18:17
Very good points made by all here. I would like to point out a couple of things.
I don't think that anyone can argue that Chum and Pink is even comparable with King and Coho although I believe retailers want to pass it off as such. This may offend some of the staunch Chum guys here. I recognize and concede that Chum has a valid place on the market but think that it is being used to undermine the merits of King and Coho and steal market share from King and Coho while blending it ambiguously all together as "wild alaska salmon". This harms the market's opinion of wild salmon and will reduce demand for the top of the line products (King and Coho) as many people will inevitably eat chum and not know that they could have payed more money for a fish that actually tastes good. The end result is they buy less salmon.
I think it is extremely important to inform our customers of the differences and clearly delineate between the species. This may be the most important objective of any troller who wants a higher price for his product (Dog and Pink guys excluded). I am not a dog fisherman so I can not speak for their wishes but it seems we would possibly be at odds on this???
Agree completely with WC on the terminology. The word "troll" or "trolling" should be off limits. Its mistaken connection to trawling and ill favored connotation with bridge dwelling creatures is too engrained in society to use effectively in marketing. But at the same time defining our products by how they are caught and processed is one of the most critical necessities on the table here. I would again allude to the fact that we are commercial fishermen and not marketing experts. There are reasons that organizations pay millions of dollars to marketing and advertising firms to create and implement marketing campaigns. We should be careful to recognize our limitations in this regard.
I think a website is a brilliant idea. However, these are also not free and if you're going to do it, do it right and go all in on it. It has to be intuitively and professionally constructed. It would also need to be optimized for search engines.
I also love the mother's day opening idea. However, while it is in line with a "promotional activity", I think it is putting the chicken before the egg.
Journey
2013-01-24 21:47:00
I see three parts to promoting our salmon.
1. Get them to buy it. Lots of thoughts already posted on how to do this.
2. Educate all fishermen on the importance of proper handling. One idea- what if we could get some of the plants to give some sort of public recognition/ small prize for exceptional fish handling?
3. Educate the public on what to do
I think that educating people on how to properly prepare salmon is a crucial and overlooked part of promoting salmon in general. An over-cooked fillet of the finest king salmon is arguable just as unappealing as a mishandled or dark fish. It does us no good to provide the best salmon in the world if the quality is lost before it ever touches anyone's lips. We need to reach people that think that they don't like salmon.
Salty
2013-01-25 00:02:17
Here are my thoughts, as little as they are worth, as I take a break from taxes, gear inventory, and another troll industry project I am working on that will go public by the end of the month.
My experience is that you change troll management and opportunity one step at a time. I have not organized a campaign for a proposal on a forum yet, but it might be kind of fun. And since I am independent now I can help where ever I choose.
The deadline for proposals to the Alaska Board of Fisheries for their next consideration of SE Troll proposals is April of 2014. Then they will consider the proposals in early 2015 and they might or might not get approved and into regulation by that spring. Most likely not until May 2016.
I have felt for a long time that there should be at least one "Market" driven troll opening inside the surf line in early May for the opportunity to have a special "spring king" targeted troll fishery for mother's day, to beat the Copper River Kings to the market, and because I agree that guys, particularly in the Yakutat and Craig area should have a spring shot.
So, I am thinking write it up for a 1-3 day shot, one day the first year to see what the harvest is, toward a GHL of 5,000 "Alaska wild spring kings". Then the dept. could give us up to three days in one opening for "Mothers Day".
Kind of fun, thank you to everyone chiming in here. Lots of good ideas. One note of caution, I think it hurts all of us to speak ill of any of our troll caught salmon. The analogy I have used many times, perhaps even in posts here, is that each species of salmon, each stock, the method of harvest, the handling, the maturity, the feed, etc. all contribute to the unique flavor of every fish. It is like wines; there are great dry white wines, like chums, there are fine Rose's, like pinks, and then there are a whole universe of fine red wines, like our Sockeye, Coho, and Chinook. And I can't afford to taste a wine that would compare to an ocean fresh white king. Some people prefer a lighter dry wine, while others prefer a rich full bodied red. And then some of us like different flavors for different occasions.
I am ordering two cases of a blend today from a particular vineyard where I know the people, have stayed at their place, and heard their story of struggling to grow the grapes, do it right environmentally, etc. Maybe we are on the rising tide of a whole new wave of food marketing and consuming that will lift us trollers with it.
Once and Future
2013-01-25 01:23:33
Perhaps "Lure Caught" would be a viable alternative to "Troll Caught". Or, what else? "Hook and Line Fished"?
FV_Wild_Card
2013-01-25 01:32:41
I've been refering to dogs as Tiger Salmon for years now. Hasn't quite caught on the way I had hoped...
Salty
2013-01-25 01:47:00
[attachment=0]Chrome chums, Icy Straits, 2010.jpg[/attachment]
I call em "puppies"
Once and Future
2013-01-25 02:11:09
Hey, wait a minute. Being a perverse rascal, I had another idea. We could actually embrace the term "troll", and trademark an icon of one of the little fellows sitting under a bridge with a fishing pole, and use the words "Troll Caught".
Then, if that gets people's attention, you have an explanation on the back of the package or a link to a website that explains "troll caught" doesn't mean what it sounds like.
afteryou
2013-01-25 04:25:45
Then, if that gets people's attention, you have an explanation on the back of the package or a link to a website that explains "troll caught" doesn't mean what it sounds like.
I like your idea OaF. If you want people to think troll caught gonna have to say troll. :D
Salty
2013-01-25 05:33:42
My friend Dan Stoeckel came back from the Boston Seafood Show with exactly what you describe. "Troll" brand salmon with a picture of a troll under a bridge. Only problem it was a "Norwegian Troll" and the salmon was farmed.
fvsedna
2013-01-25 06:37:13
...... "Hook & line, caught ,cleaned & cared for, one at a time"......
afteryou
2013-01-25 06:42:12
Ouch :o Lets put the troll on a boat and skip the bridge.
SilverT
2013-01-25 07:24:30
Ohhhhh, the paaain! Sent to to idea school by Salty, dreams of troll-caught being a household word dashed by wild_card , educated on the overwhelming affect of the greater powers, my thread hi-jacking terminated, promotion discussion re-focused on a single state, renewed focus on localized & individual effort, my career as a marketer down the drain... Not...sure...the....ego's....gonna....make...it... :)
My co-workers continually correct my plans, ideas and reports as a part of the quality control process. No one ever explained to me in school how many times my creations would be edited or thrown out and when I first started it was extremely painful. I finally placed a note with a list of things I wanted to remember each day where I could see it in the morning. Number 1 reads, “I could be wrong.” And it still hangs there today. It doesn’t completely take away the pain, but at least I’m prepared. I’m not as interested as I used to be in my ideas succeeding as I am that correct ideas succeed so that when the project is built, it functions as intended. Really good ideas have been generated and that was a great point on the negativity of the word "troll.” It’s great to start thinking of other terms. I don't have a lot to add, but offer the following for consideration.
The reason I would like trollers to unite and fund advertisement and education using a single organization is to see the troll fleet function as intended. I want trollers to have the same benefits we have at our firm: a great income, great medical benefits and a great retirement plan. I have not seen that created with a practiced, disjointed approach in 30 years. I believe that with a unified, consistent, effective, clear, fully-funded message to the public, it could be.
I asked my Dad today what we were getting in the early 80's (30 years ago) for kings and he said, between $3.00-3.50 per pound. I asked what coho fetched and he said, “$1.25-$1.50.” About 70 trollers had free moorage at the co-op because they wanted their business. I asked what gasoline sold for per gallon and he said, “$1.30.” I looked up what diesel sold for and it was 82 cents per gallon. Comparing the change in average income during the same period, in 1980, $17,000 dollars was the median income and in 2011, it was about $49,000.
I’m concerned that we have a correct perspective as to whether or not trollers are gaining ground financially. The money received for the fish in 1980, relative to the cost of living was about double what it is today. If I were to argue the point, I would say, “but, haven’t you seen the strides in the pink & chum sales?” and it wouldn’t be without merit, but was ground gained or were losses merely shored up? Are trollers better off than they were 30 years ago? Are single-income trollers able to save for retirement?
If a troller retires right now and sells their $150,000 boat and deposits the money in an investment that returns them 5-8% per year, they will earn between $625-$875 dollars per month to add to their social security check. I’m guessing, but in order for the average troller to have an income that would support their entire family well and include good medical benefits and a retirement plan, their income would have to increase from between $20,000-$30,000 per year. Exceptions exist, I'm sure. But, that's a radical change that would seem to require something far different to achieve.
I could be wrong, but it seems the upper end of the instrument for measuring the success of the troll fleet has a really, really low setting. If it does, it makes small gains look much larger than they are. If the troll fleet is steaming for success, then I’m all for no radical course correction. I don’t have much to lose but the precious few remains of my wounded ego. It will be great for my character. If I'm right, then it would be good to do more than consider the concept. Keep the great ideas coming. It’s been a fantastic thread.
Lane
FV_Wild_Card
2013-01-25 17:13:49
JYDPDX
2013-01-25 19:49:24
I asked my Dad today what we were getting in the early 80's (30 years ago) for kings and he said, between $3.00-3.50 per pound. I asked what coho fetched and he said, “$1.25-$1.50.” About 70 trollers had free moorage at the co-op because they wanted their business. I asked what gasoline sold for per gallon and he said, “$1.30.” I looked up what diesel sold for and it was 82 cents per gallon. Comparing the change in average income during the same period, in 1980, $17,000 dollars was the median income and in 2011, it was about $49,000.
I’m concerned that we have a correct perspective as to whether or not trollers are gaining ground financially. The money received for the fish in 1980, relative to the cost of living was about double what it is today.
…………… Are trollers better off than they were 30 years ago?
No and we cant be with Farmed products available BUT we could be better off than we are today and we could take market share from other fisheries.
Our products are superior to the Substitute Products. They are in fact, NOT Perfect Substitutes at all bur merely perceived that way to varying degrees by a naive population and that is why there is a fallacy that we cant increase demand and sell our superior salmon for a higher price than it currently is being sold for.
As consumers are uninformed and make decisions accordingly, we suffer because we have the finest products available.
Salty
2013-01-26 03:17:35
Great comments. Thanks for the thread. It always fascinates me how discussions, ideas, germinate and flower, and then often evaporate. I wonder if the nature of a conversation of written words on a forum on the net will have any longer lasting value and more possibility of evolving into a written proposal, an organized campaign, a concrete result than a conversation on the dock or VHF. Here is hoping the answer is yes.
SilverT
2013-01-26 19:52:46
Sage wisdom in your question & a reminder that it takes folks in the arena.
Thanks,
Lane
Abundance
2013-01-27 00:23:15
I think that this forum is a good place to share ideas, but I think that too small a percentage of the fleet is represented on here to get a large scale movement together. Although when I think about it, this is probably the largest gathering of trollers to ever to gather in a place and talk about issues in history. About promotion, I like the idea of marketing troll caught fish separately, but the issue comes up of how you will sell them. Will you start up your own coop business and sell to specialty stores, or direct marketing? Having once been a part of a direct marketing business, I can tell you that it starts as a good idea that becomes a nightmare quickly. Nobody knows you exist. How are you going to pay for advertising? How are you going to survive until people start to find out about you and hopefully buy your fish? The last time I shipped a king salmon by FedEx, it cost me $112. When you take into account your expenses and storage costs, you might need to charge $4-500 for the fish. You need people to really like fish to pay that. Can you obtain enough freezer space to store all of your fish? who is going to watch over the freezer when you are gone, and what do you do when (not if) it goes out? What do you do when all you can catch are scrawny cohos and your king season nonexistent? We made it through about two years of this before we gave up and decided to let the buyers worry about all of this ulcer inducing misery. I know that people have made it work, but a guy should know what he is getting into and have a good backup plan, and not go into this sort of thing without a significant amount of fleet support. I really like the direction this thread is going. Lets keep coming up with ways to get through all of these obstacles.
Salty
2013-01-27 01:12:05
Thoughts from a “lurker” on the site who asked me to edit his comment as he does not type a lot. So here it is edited for spelling, punctuation, and grammar. Otherwise as sent to me.
A large volume of fish must be available to make any impact in a marketing campaign. So count up the 5 years percent average of April production add 10 percent of the first opener, add 10 percent of the second opener and create an outside the surf line 4 day opener. Is that 25000 fish? That’s enough for the restaurant trade nationwide.
That’s worth 6 bucks which is freezer price for the fish from the summer openers, an economic plus for the state, and an environmental plus for the Washington and BC fisheries as it gives a good look at fish abundance, which will help those entities to better manage their fisheries.
The hindrance is how to sell the 10 percent loss to the lower 48 freezer fleet. The July opener comes at the worst possible time for marketing salmon. Bristol bay salmon are prevalent, a huge oversupply in a short time. Added to this is the 4th of July beef barbeque season, which is kicked off in supermarkets with loss leader prices and advertising paid for by the cattlemen.
It is a great time to be buying salmon for the freezer, low price, no demand, and no benefit to Alaska. By the 3rd week of July Bristol bay reds are done as a fresh airfreight product, the lower 48 is in the grip of a heat wave making heavy meats less desirable. Beef and pork (pork is more desirable in the heat) have had their day in the sun marketing wise and by Aug. California salmon has backed off.
3rd week July SE coho are backing off. 4 day closure, 1st opener kings last week July, close 6 to 10 days, 2nd opener, close to deliver, then finish up on decent size coho. Everybody wins.”
Once and Future
2013-01-27 04:35:15
Separate initiatives. I certainly understand the concern of lots of talk and ideas, and then running out of steam. I think one solution is several parallel projects that don't depend on one another. If a few projects fizzle out, then maybe others continue. While most ideas are worth follow up, I personally have the most hope for some type of campaign to educate the public about our small boat fleet and the quality of our product. Even if they can't go out and buy it today, they have the seed of an idea about what is possible.
The Seafood Producer's Co-op has done a lot of work and promotion that has benefited us all. Yet, our industry is declining. What I envision is this promotional program, tied in with a mascot logo, that has people aware of/looking for our products. The companies that buy our fish outside the co-op should also be interested in this promotion. At this point, many of them must be asking themselves does it even pay to handle troll fish any more. They could be a source of support for this potential program.
In my experience, it is hard for people to think out of their own realm of experience. Specifically, fisherman can't get in the heads of the potential customers we are missing. Some contributors on this forum are aware that the average US citizen has no idea of the different species and gear groups. If someone feeds them a piece of salmon that was cooked improperly, they are liable to turn up their nose at it for the rest of their lives.
I think, make it a goal to educate people about us so that if we do fade away, people will miss us when we're gone. That is not the case right now. And, if we can achieve that, we get a little sympathy from the public as regulatory proposals come down. Isn't that why gillnetters are getting forced off the Columbia River now? People are only marginally aware of the good folks that labor in that fishery.
So I envision this little board that looks for opportunities to educate the public, a website at the minimum to start. Tied in with that, they allow fish sellers to afix our fleet logo to the product. Kind of our own certification program.
kjwelder
2013-01-27 04:39:15
When i am promoting my product i refer to our hook and line caught salmon as "artisan fish" instead of commercial.
kjwelder
2013-01-27 04:56:10
@ Abundance regarding Trident pink salmon burgers. My brother is a huge fan of their chum burgers. When hes crewing he'd rather us sell our fish to a processor and get paid than mess with a home pack. Then he buys this type of salmon product at his local grocer in Oregon. I've eaten the salmon patties and they are good.... But I prefer baking headed gutted filleted skin on frozen portions vacuum packed portions. Yummy brain food!
Abundance
2013-01-27 05:42:05
I am glad to hear that. Value added and prepared products such as these are exactly what chums should be marketed as, not plain fillets. And I think that you are spot on with the idea that we are an artisanal fishery. That really should be our selling point. Traveling on the national road system and going through cities, you see thousands of small farms and microbreweries and specialty bakeries and the like, and they seem to get good business. There are places on the West and East coasts where you can buy local fish on that level, but Alaskan fishermen are too far out of our national system to really engage in that personal, public marketing. I think that Sitka Salmon Shares has the right idea by adding the personal touch. I like the idea from our "lurker" above. Something that shifts our small time fishery from struggling to participating in the mass market to the smaller venues is a step in that direction.
Salty
2013-01-27 06:13:18
"An artisan is therefore a person engaged in or occupied by the practice of a craft, who may through experience and talent reach the expressive levels of an artist using his hands, mind and heart in his work and what he creates."
I have never heard this before referred to troll caught salmon and I know the person who posted it quite well. It is the best description of what some trollers become that I have seen. I would change it a bit to describe a troller. Something like:
An artisan salmon troller is a fisherman engaged in trolling salmon who through experience, talent, and grit reaches the expressive level of an artist using his trolling vessel, his fishing environment, his hands, mind, and heart in his work to harvest and market the finest quality salmon on earth. His/her product thus becomes "Artisan salmon".
Something might be being created as we share on this thread, this forum. I am not so sure what it will end up being "separate initiatives", visions, labels, or what. Sometimes when I am composing a picture I have an idea of the image I want, other times the image that emerges from the editing process is something I never imagined when I was composing the shot. Here is an example:
[attachment=0]IMG_4240.JPG[/attachment]
Salty
2013-01-27 06:25:38
I want to chime in that while this forum, a web site, is dedicated to discussing and promoting trolling, thank you Jon, it is not a "marketing" web site. I agree with this idea. How can I help make it happen? Donation? Encouragement? Research, pictures, contacts? Let me know.
JYDPDX
2013-01-27 15:36:12
I have to point something out. I have never understood why fishermen who sell directly to customers consider this "Direct Marketing". It is NOT marketing at all. It is "Sales". Its a misleading term and misnomer.
Marketing is the process of communicating the value of a product or service to customers. Marketing might sometimes be interpreted as the art of selling products, but selling is only a small fraction of marketing. As the term "Marketing" may replace "Advertising" it is the overall strategy and function of promoting a product or service to the customer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marketing
While I support the website idea, I think that people's minds these days immediately go website and think that if you have a website then all this magical stuff starts happening. A website, while perfectly integral to marketing our products, would only be a component of a campaign.
I will suggest again that as was originally proposed, the fleet needs to hire a professional marketing firm to create a strategy and implement a campaign.
We would obviously need to tax ourselves and hire a marketing firm.
Another option would be to use that infrastructure allocated mitigation money but I am under the assumption its to late to change the intended allocation.
Having the guy who knows computers put together a fleet website is a nice idea, but very shortsighted. Besides we already have one. It doesn't mean anybody is going to read it.
Once and Future
2013-01-27 15:47:39
I can imagine a lot of resistance from trollers who don't feel they can afford to contribute funds. A logo or mascot would be a cheap place to start. According to the Bathroom Reader, the college student that created the Nike swoosh logo got paid $35.00 for her efforts. Definitely affordable, but I imagine she spent the rest of her life pissed off over how that worked out.
If we had a logo to show people, that gives something to point to while we talk, and could become a rallying point. So as to not ground out the other ideas introduced on this thread, I will probably start a new one later today. Also, I can jump back on the mascot idea thread that was started.
I think a lot of you guys who are residents of Alaska and the pacific northwest greatly over estimate the level to which the average consumer in the lower 48 is informed concerning salmon.
I'd estimate that 90% of salmon eaters in this country don't know that there are different species of salmon. Many people think that farmed salmon is a better choice because they think that wild salmon might be over fished. I doubt that even 5% know that there are different gear types catching salmon and of those even fewer of those would know why one might be more desirable over another.
Very rarely do I see wild salmon at restaurants, even at more expensive restaurants. Restaurants don't serve it because the customers don't care and are willing to pay $20 - $25 for a dish of farmed salmon and don't know that they are being overcharged.
JYDPDX
2013-01-29 10:21:58
We're going to do something about this Drew. We have a salty peanut logo ready.
afteryou
2013-01-29 16:54:11
Were you up past your bed time you seem grumpy? :lol:
rlsprague
2013-01-29 17:56:33
Remember 3 yrs ago when California had a closed season along with Oregon? You would have thought that Alaskan troll caught prices would have spiked( supply and demand)right! But in talking to chefs& other end users many were and still are disappointed that the Quality and origin of purported troll caught is not verifiable and many times the order will consist of fish with net markings and other less than quality characteristic features and that fact lead many chefs in the California region to turn to farmed raised salmon because it was at least consistent in its quality .This is just a thought for you to kick around what if all king salmon needed to be tagged w/ adfg produced tail tag certifying that fish as being wild troll caught king salmon w/# linking it back to producer.This would be the only certified wild troll caught king salmon in the world that should make consumers more confident of the product they are purchasing therefor justifying the extra cost.Also producers that take good care of the product could possibly have end users come directly to the source adding more income to the producer as well as $ to the fish tax-just a thought Chip
Salty
2013-01-29 19:27:14
Chip,
I agree with you. One of the great problem in fish sales is the mis-labeling of salmon in particular. There have been all kinds of studies showing that a high percentage are not what they are labeled. I had a personal experience with that in Dallas. Individual tagging from each vessel, particularly on fresh salmon, maybe Chinook to start would help I would think.
elkiller
2013-01-30 07:07:12
Just today in my local market here in Oregon I looked at some frozen salmon fillets. The ones marked alaska wild caught sockey fillets were 4.99/lb. Right next to them were sockeye fillets marked copper river sockey with a giant blue label. Those went for 9.99/lb. Packaged identically except for that blue label.
Trnaround
2013-01-30 14:05:06
Without a good tracking system for fish from the point of origin the consumer is at the mercy of the information they have at the point of sale. i.e. packaging or the word of the seller who is giving information from his sources. Credibility counts which is opportunity for solid providers like the Seafood Processors Co-op or others that are well established. Hopefully that is a selling point to the market that knows and cares about quality. We truly have a great product from a health standpoint, an ocean friendly standpoint and a quality taste standpoint. Getting the information out to the market is our challenge, all these ideas are great and some if not all of these things are being done already but obviously more needs to be done. There is a huge market and opportunity out there for the best. It is an unfortunate consequence that other salmon products will ride the coat tails of "artisan salmon" but like Salty or someone posted we couldn't meet the needs of the entire market anyway. We should just remember what we have to sell and keep getting the message out.
I think I posted my comments about individual tagging in the wrong thread last time ( Trolling Mascot). I talked with one of the possessors in Sitka about them getting tags that explained why troll caught fish were the best and the name of vessel they came off of. He seemed to think it was a good idea but he had to run it by the sales team down south to see if it would be profitable for them. He said about 90% of our #1 kings were sold fresh with the head on. Even if they wouldn't buy the tags doesn't mean we couldn't buy them ourselves. He said he would know more next week. I would like to hear some more thoughts on this.
afteryou
2013-01-30 19:10:11
Awesome !
Salty
2013-01-30 19:21:43
I don't do facebook much but I was thinking about the discussion on this thread so I went to my seldom visited facebook page and updated my work so that it read Alaska Salmon Troller. This morning I had two e-mails from facebook noting that my sisters had both hit the like button. I would like to say that I would have hit the "like" button on several of the posts on this thread this morning. Particularly for duck who actually went to the processor and talked about it. Reinforces my idea that there is more to this forum, these discussions than vapor.
Salty
2013-01-30 20:05:37
http://copperrivermarketing.org/gallery
Here is a good site to get an idea of what they are doing. Interesting in that they don't have one picture of a fish in a net. I am sure it is a marketing decision.
Salty
2013-01-30 20:13:42
JYDPDX
2013-01-30 21:50:10
Here is a good site to get an idea of what they are doing. Interesting in that they don't have one picture of a fish in a net. I am sure it is a marketing decision.
Incredible. It's amazing to me that these fishermen have organized and manage their own campaign and to such tremendous success. How do they fund it? Our ATA can only afford one staff member who is, as I understand, quite limited on resources, none of which are allocated to marketing.
Maybe we would be more willing to ante up if we knew it would have a direct correlation with prices, not to insinuate that ATA doesnt affect our pockets.
I wonder how and in what capacity processors are involved.
Trnaround
2013-01-30 23:13:59
So McDonalds gets MSC to certify its fish sandwich and Carl JR. and Hardee's got a swimsuit model to certify their cod sandwich. I gotta say Carl Jr. your marketing department wins. Maybe we could get her to put on a pair of Extra Tuffs and do a campaign for the trollers.
afteryou
2013-01-30 23:59:28
Are you trying to say that people prefer sex to a Mcfish sandwich? :lol:
Trnaround
2013-01-31 02:33:43
Ha ha who knows. ;)
Trnaround
2013-01-31 14:46:40
It is amazing to me what sells to the public, I guess that's why marketing is a science. It seems humorous that a swimsuit model and a cod sandwich have anything at all in common. I can see that working for selling Harleys or European sports cars but fish sandwiches.....who knew?
SE AK
2013-01-31 17:27:57
Lately I have been watching a lot of those reallity TV shows about commercial alligator fishing with J hooks, commercial bluefin fishing with poles, commercial carp netting in U.S. lakes, Bering crab fishing and I'm sure that I'm forgetting a few in addition to the two shows about Alaskan small scale mining, one about cops in the Alaskan bush and one about a family living in the sticks in Kachemak Bay. It amazes me that there is so much public interest in lifestyles very similar to the ones that we live. I was thinking about what is causing so much interest in these shows and I think that it comes down to the fact that from a normal 9-5 perspective these peoples lives are facinating, most people never knew that these lifestiles were an option in the U.S. today. I watch someone on TV catching gators and bluefin and I think, "I wish that I could do that" and in both instances I wondered what their product tastes like and where I could yet some. If any sport fisherman of any sort saw what we do for a living they would be instantly hooked. They would listen as the troller on TV told them about the health benefits of salmon as he fought in one fish after another, the superior quality of troll caught fish as he bled, dressed and possibly even pressure bled his fish after running his lines, the ecological responsibility of the fishery as he gently releases a shaker (when they do this on Wicked Tuna they explain how releasing small fish makes their fishery superior and it is done well). I know that nobody wants a camera crew on their boat, bad behavior could be seen in the background, sea lion hordes and other problems exist but I bet that if the idea were pitched to one of these TV networks with a well thought out, half competent video it could work. People are interested in fisheries and in remote Alaska right now. Rather that trying to figure out how to find money to create exposure, maybe some of us could be paid to create it. It is working very well for much less interesting fisheries that do not have the benefit of cool old wood boats, neat sideline subsistence activities, shots of the old growth Tongass forests and spawning grounds, interesting little fishing villages that are more primative than most people knew existed in America and the most um...colorfull personalities of any fishing fleet that I've come across. I don't think that I want a camera crew on my boat (unless it it pays well) but if I can get ahold of the technology for a promo video I might try go that far, maybe try to talk somebody else with better manners than mine into the idea. I've thought of a few ways that this could go wrong if it came to pass and have heard of a few more, but it's worth at least some thought.
Abundance
2013-01-31 17:58:39
I think they tried to get a reality show for seiners a while back, and it only aired a few episodes. I wouldn't mind a crew filming what I do for a living, it would actually be fun, although I don't know where most of us would find room for them. It is a fact though, public interest in Alaska and adventure in general is at a level unheard of ever before. Whenever I make my yearly trip to the midwest, anybody who finds out that you are an Alaskan Fisherman!!!! makes you into a mini-celebrity. Alaska sells almost as well a sex. I saw a Burger King commercial for their fish sandwiches that played up the fact that their pollock came from beautiful Alaska!!! and where filleted fresh on the boat. I think that the ASMI has a label they put on certified Alaskan fish, but it is a little white symbol with a boat on it by the ingredients list in the back. Something more front and centered and colorful would be nice.
SE AK
2013-02-01 00:56:17
I'd bet that the seining show fell through because it was boring, if I remember right I saw an episode a few years back and wasn't impressed. I think that the key is to be shown doing something that the viewer wishes they could do themselves. Comparatively what we do is much more fun than what the seiners are doing, especially from a layman's perspective, though I bet the spending money in the off season is more fun for them. In the tuna and 'gator shows most of the filming is done from chase boats, they don't have the room either.
SilverT
2013-02-01 04:00:08
I have a cousin in reality TV production and I spoke with him about the general requirements for a successful show. He only mentioned one, drama. No drama, no show. Little drama, short show.
I really like the tag idea. Local stores are posting the names of the captain and harvest vessel for some of the fish they sell, but keep in mind, this is close to Seattle and not a representation of the rest of the country. Sometimes it's on a sandwich board in the middle of the front door. It shows some progress at least in our area. I sold fresh kings & coho to folks last year, boat to doorstep and people loved knowing who caught their salmon.
rlsprague brought up two really good points. The path of least resistance for suppliers was to go to an easy substitute. That path will always be there if wholesalers believe they can get away with it. It will always be there if restaurants believe they can get away with it. Everyone up the chain can get away with it if the last guy in the chain will allow it (the public). I could certify it as the all-time, best flavored, highest fat content, free-est swimming chinook that every graced the producer's table and if the next guy up the chain doesn't believe he can convince the next guy up the chain it's worth more, it doesn't matter.
If the public is educated, none of the members of the chain have to push hard. It turns from a push to a pull. The public asks for it at counters & in restaurants, the seafood retailer asks for it from the wholesaler, the wholesaler asks for it from the producer and the producer asks nicely for it from the troller. That's how it appears to be working in the sockeye industry. I still like the tag idea and think it will help. But, I believe that these efforts could have a greater effect on troller’s pocket books.
His other point seemed to be that scarcity didn't translate into higher prices for trollers. Higher prices appear to come from a combination of ultra-high demand, competition between buyers created by it, leverage, and the ability to by-pass the existing system if it doesn’t pay well enough. The environment most trollers find themselves in lacks most, if not all of these in large part to their lack of unity. If one troller doesn't sell to a processor, what's the big deal? If 50 don't sell, things change - I've seen it.
Effort without unity and a public education campaign feels to me like filling a garage with junk until there are only 10 cubic feet left. Then working alone every evening to get it all organized without throwing anything away. The kid goes out to find something a couple of times and the garage is right back to the same disaster. The neighbor, let’s call him Copper, pulls his car in his clean garage and before he shuts the door he looks over, shrugs and says, “Hey neighbor :) . Noticed your garage :( The best thing we did was agree with one another to hire someone to come in and throw away all that baggage we were hanging on to. Funny how we could never use those other improvements we’ve made to the place over the years because all that stuff was in the way.”
Thanks for all the ideas and all the effort to document them. I hope to put them to good use.
Lane
Kelper
2013-03-05 23:00:35
Figured to beat on this dead horse a bit more..
Came across this on google today..
http://www.wholefoodsmarket.com/blog/whole-story/alaska-troll-caught-coho-salmon-sale-friday-0
The comments tell a tale.. confusion between "trawl" and "troll", being one of them. Nice explanation though, but we need to get that info all the way to the $9 an hour worker at the store level. Happy to see a fresh market for cohos though. Curious to why they say only a few weeks though, for cohos? We could keep all 300+ stores they have nicely stocked with fresh product from July 1st to Sept 20th and a bit beyond. Imagine if we could capture a season long fresh market for cohos, to really drive up the price? And, fresh cohos (as well as frozen) are sooooo good.. almost the perfect middle class, suburbia salmon. Anybody know who whole foods was buying from? And, why can't they buy more?
Now, as far as the $8.99 a lb.. where does that price come from? Anybody want to break down who makes what with that price?
Trnaround
2013-03-05 23:27:24
A simple You Tube video series with an explanation of what types of wild salmon are caught,how they are caught, the advantages of troll caught with pictures landing preparing the fish to go to the market etc. would get to a lot of people. There are already some videos posted there about commercial salmon fishing but one that is concise and informative would be an asset. You Tube is being used for teaching in many other ways and students often refer to You Tube videos for assignments. It could be a great way of getting to a huge audience. Maybe do it in a way that isn't self serving to the industry but informational which is what you want right? Educate the consumer then let them make the right choice.
SilverT
2013-03-06 02:53:39
Trnaround,
That's a great idea. I can't tell you how much time my kids & friends spend watching youtube! Side note: Having brothers, I think my favorite video is the Icelandic Wooden Spoon Fight. Don't judge me :D . If a few folks took video using Gopro's throughout the season so there was a lot of footage to choose from, it might be relatively reasonable to produce.
Kelper, The troller was paid about $1.25-$2.25/lb., processor/wholesaler (could be one and the same) $3.75-$4.75/lb & retailer doubles it.
Lane
SilverT
2013-03-06 05:06:19
I thought about it on the way home and decided I should post the link to the fight after thinking about the analogy. The guy in the middle represents the average troller trying to influence the price of his or her fish. The guys on either side perhaps represent the system we feed, the processors, retailers, fish farmers and the competition?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04WmBA9ZxPU
Lane
salmon4u
2013-03-06 08:22:28
Ak trollers need a new organization... the Alaskan Wild Troll Caught Salmon Union.. an organization that is united, and will refuse to produce product until an agreeable price is negotiated and agreed upon with processors and wholesale buyers... all fisherman deserve a shot at a fair living wage.. .... I'd love to see that for Ak trollers
JYDPDX
2013-03-06 15:27:00
YouTube is great and so are gopros. but. Consumers are not going to seek out their own information, it needs to be brought to them some how.
Kelper
2013-03-06 16:21:21
I think you-tube will get us somewhere, but only so far.
We need to partner with a big chain like whole foods to carry our product, and our product only. 300+ stores pushing our product to the people that will actually eat our product would sell a lot of fish. We need to give them lots of educational material to educate all their staff, so they can talk trolling effortlessly. We need be at the stores on special sale days, shaking hands and talking to the customers. Something like "2013 Coho fillets for sale; come meet an alaskan fisherman" Cardboard cutouts of our trollers, etc. That's what it would take.. and all that takes time and money. Call me optimistic, but I think our large cohos should be worth $3-4 a pound when we sell them, and I think we could get there. Kings remain king, but cohos aren't that far behind.
Trnaround
2013-03-06 16:39:55
JYDPX, absolutely right, getting it out there is the challenge which takes professional marketers and media. A lot is being done by a lot of our organizations but I am sure they have budget limitations. You Tube would be an inexpensive way of getting solid information out there (if it is well done) and doesn't have to come from the standpoint of advertising which then gets into the realm of- you have to pay to get your message out there. Seems like it would be a great student project. I am sure those on this site could provide information and video if asked.