My Detroit eats Deer for breakfast.

afteryou

2013-01-12 02:57:00

Anybody swap out a pretty green engine with black stripes for one of those silly white things with the wires hanging out everywhere. Anyone regret it, anyone miss their old Jimmy?

Of the seven different diesels I have had four of them have Detroit’s, plus two Isuzu’s and a Perkins.

I have never had a fuel filter shut down a Jimmy. They have smoked, loped and lost throttle but never died.

Both my Isuzu’s were a pain in the @$$. If there was some crud laying on the floor next to the filter it would shut the engine down. Don’t even get me started on the bleeding procedure that followed. Nothing like hanging over a hot engine on a rough night with a flashlight between your teeth screwing with thumb pumps and bleeder screws. Other than that nice engines smooth and quiet.

I can change the fuel filter on my Detroit in about thirty seconds if you don’t count getting the filter out of the cubby. Self-bleeding fuel systems seem like a nice safety feature. I wonder how many lives/boats this has saved? Anybody got a good story?

I was talking to a gillnetter friend of mine who had replaced a Volvo with a Deer. I asked him how he liked it. His reply was “it’s awesome if I get a plugged filter the engine shuts itself off and a message comes up on this nifty display.”

“No thanks” I said.

Salty

2013-01-12 03:42:08

I grew up with a 453 Jimmy and had one in my boat from 86-95. Then I got a John Deere. Comparing a modern diesel of almost any brand to WWII era Jimmies which were built to survive war conditions and fuel is hilarious. Like comparing an abacus for computing with a modern computer.

It is so nice to have a quiet and clean engine that is fuel efficient and not circulating hot fuel all around the boat. It is so nice not to have oil in the bilge and all over the engine from various weeps. It is really nice to go 24,000 hours without ever adding oil between oil changes. It is so nice to check the oil after 200 hours and it is still clear.

I have only had my Deere 13 years so I have never had to try the bleeding procedure to get it re-started.

afteryou

2013-01-12 04:20:59

Is your engine naturally aspirated or turbo? Is it computer controlled? I think it might be a bit older than the engines I am referring to. Is it self-bleeding or…? I don’t have any experience with John Deere (thanks for the E Salty) other than fixing the holes that the swaps have made. :D

Kelper

2013-01-12 17:25:45

What do you guys think of the volvo md70?

Kelper

2013-01-12 17:53:24

Here is another question that inquiring minds would like to know..

What's the cost of a complete new repower going to run you, with a professional install on a average sized troller. (40ft)

Salty

2013-01-12 18:14:23

My 6068 is naturally aspirated without a computer. I just talked to Brent Buckland here and he said he is putting in a new 4 cylinder Deere and rebuilding a Twin Disc gear for a local guy. I can't recall the exact price mentioned but it sounded like around $30,000.

My engine is no longer available in the US.

Trnaround

2013-01-14 14:33:37

I have a 6cyl Cummins, (aftercoole turbo) which is a sweet running engine as long as there is no air in the fuel supply. I found that out the second day of a July opener first trip with the "new boat". We were in a good bite off of Pt. Amelia and the drag gets pretty close to the rocks at the point. I was on the back tack fortunately when I had a complete shut down. Quiet panic was the initial reaction but looking at the plotter I could see the drift was out to deeper water so it became why won't this thing start. Down in the ER to the filter, clean but air in it. I noticed the former owner had installed a piece of clear hose to the filter, was this a common problem? Anyway there was the repair manual on board and had re start procedures in it so I was able to get going after about an hour, seemed like 5 hours. Hauled the gear and had 5 nice Kings and other than some tangles got all the gear back. After multiple shut downs for the next 2 months ( took about 2day running to get enough air in the filter to shut down) and going through every connection in the system it was a pin hole in a braised joint on the elbow going into the fuel tank. I got pretty fast at bleeding and restarting the Cummins which served me well in another bad spot but that is another chapter. I can definitely relate to that bad feeling when you can't trust your machine.

Salty

2013-01-14 17:17:26

I had an air leak sucking air in at high flow on my 453 diesel in 1995. Having your diesel sputtering in South Inian Pass is disquieting. I changed the engine out the next winter. Even though the air leak was probably in the Fuel tank/ filter fittings. Never did find it.

afteryou

2013-01-14 18:38:34

Sputtering, but it got you through the pass eh?

Trnaround, great post.

When I first got my current boat it had air in the fuel real bad. I knew this when I bought it. The boat was fishing but with a very cobbled system. After I looked it over I decided that it was not safe to leave the confines of the breakwater. Funny the surveyor didn’t say anything about it. Only thing that needed fixed on the survey was a cracked window. I have a much longer list and the window is still cracked five years later.

Anyway when the engine (453) was running I could watch a big steady stream of air bubbles passing through the Racore. The filter was mounted above the engine making it the highest point in the fuel system and a catch all for the air (engine was still running great). When I cracked it open it was half empty. So to shorten up my ramble I redid the entire system, moved the filter below the engine and the saddle tanks. I also had a day tank made for the stove. I hate pulse pumps.

My boat has three fuel tanks two saddle and one larger tank under the floor in the bow. The bow tank has almost no access without a saw. If I were to run my side tanks empty I would have no way to bleed the filters without using a jug. So when I had the day tank made I added an outlet well below the one for the stove. I also plumbed in a return line, as well as a fill for an electric fuel transfer pump. This allows me to gravity bleed the entire fuel system right back to the tanks no matter how much fuel I have onboard. It along with the electric pump allows me to safely use all the fuel in a tank instead of having to leave it a third full to avoid sucking air (small tanks). I also installed a Racore between the transfer pump and day tank so it pre scrubs the fuel. One added benefit the hot tank on the back of the cabin is great for drying raingear and warming hands.

I keep rambling but my point was after I replaced the fuel system I was still getting air from the bow tank (I suspect the straw) but it’s not enough to give me any problems. Now that the Racore is down low the Jimmy just sucks it up and spits it out.

On a final note I like the hot fuel. When I run on my bow tank I have in floor heating in the trunk cabin. :D

JYDPDX

2013-01-14 20:21:30

Huh. I have a 4-71 and I notice little bubbles percolating through my Raycor at high rpms as well. The rancor is located at a level near the bottom of my tanks and slightly lower than my fuel pump. I've never thought much of it. The filter reservoir is always full of fuel when I open it. The engine seems to run perfect and seems to have no problems with this air. Would it run better without any air in the fuel? Should I go through my fuel lines and eliminate this air leak? Sounds like you guys didn't fix the leaks and just altered the location of Raycor and Salty was changing his engine out anyway.

I do appreciate the reliability of this engine although I have not had others to compare it to. I talked with two fishermen with John Deeres this past season that probably spent a combined month at the dock during the summer trying to sort out some computer sensor issues. One of them was dead in the water twice, once had to cut all four lines to get towed. The old Jimmy that he took out was sounding mighty appealing by the end of the season.

I enjoy hot fuel too, my engine room heats my focsle and many more times than not it is very welcomed.

:)

I could never complain about the Jimmy. It might be loud and drippy but it sure runs nice and all the time as long as it has some fuel.

Trnaround

2013-01-17 18:02:26

You bring up a good point about complexity and reliability. If you have never re-started your engine after a shut down, you might try it at the dock. My engine requires two different wrenches 10mm (to get to the injectors) and 8m (after the injectors). To find them in churning seas or verging panic is not good (only saying that because I have been there), so I have them hanging next to the engine. Being familiar with your particular situation may save some stress or maybe more. Hopefully it is never an issue.

Question: For Raycor filters what is the best filterability, had a bad experience with a 20 micron so I went more open any thoughts?

Salty

2013-01-17 18:40:56

You mean you went from 2-10 microns? I have heard other guys make the same move on their Racors. I just put a nice little indicator on the t screw on the lid of my racor that tells me when I need to change the filter. Murray Pacifi has em.

afteryou

2013-01-17 20:57:52

Can anyone explain to me why all diesels are not self-bleeding? I have a 7.3 liter International in my truck. One of the best engines ever put in a Ford. You don’t have to bleed it, which is a good considering you can’t even fit your arm in along side of it. :shock:

Anyway I’m sure there must be a good reason. What gives?

Trnaround

2013-01-17 21:26:52

Yes thanks, 2- 10 not 20, I haven't seen the indicators that go on the Racor sounds like a nice simple solution. Any preference on the filtration size?

Once and Future

2013-01-17 22:20:01

In case no one with more experience than me responds, I will tell you my thought process. My boat has a bank of 2 either/or Racors ahead of the filter directly on the engine. The filter on the engine is equivalent to what every diesel engine has for fuel filtration - even if it's not a marine engine. I have a 671. I run NAPA filters because I saw an unbiased test once that said NAPA was the best filter. (Fram was the worst.)

Anyway, I did the research and found that the NAPA filter on the engine was a 2 micron. I really, REALLY, don't want that filter to ever plug. So I went back to 2 micron filters (brown, right?) in my Racors. I am willing to change a lot of Racors to keep the one on the engine from ever plugging. Of course, I change the one on the engine about every oil change anyway.

I am tempted to call the filter on the engine the "primary", but that does not seem right. Shouldn't the first filter the fuel encounters after it leaves the tank be called the "primary"? That would be my Racors. Perhaps I should call the one on the engine the "final".

In case it wasn't clear, by either/or on my Racor bank, I of course mean I run one at a time. If I think it starts to plug up, I use the valve bank to switch to the other, unused filter so no bleeding is required at sea.

Salty

2013-01-17 23:00:24

Wow,

Good idea on the dual racors. I call them first and final. But then I like F words.

Salty

2013-01-17 23:01:29

Wow,

Good idea on the dual racors. I call them first and final. But then I like F words. Like fish, flasher, food, finagle......

Trnaround

2013-01-18 05:12:40

Yes thanks, maybe I'll go back to the 2's , they plug up a little sooner but probably give more engine protection and keep the fuel /water filter cleaner. Good post thanks.

lone eagle

2013-01-20 03:43:54

I went with a big truck system on mine, primary spin on can and a secondary which is a spin on and also incorporates a water separator. There is also an engine mounted filter. a transparent hose runs up from the top of the primary which is an air bleed and fuel guage, a shut off valve sits on top of the filter fitting

thebowlerfamily

2013-01-20 21:30:37

I also went through the whole "which element do I use" query for my twin Racor system and received conflicting trains of thought on whether to use the 2, 10, or 20 micron elements. It finally boiled down to using the 2 micron -the same reasoning whereby you want to avoid contamination getting near your engine mount filter, and dual Racors allow you to quickly switch over to a clean filter, keep your engine going, and change the dirty as you can. This last season I also removed the Racor's stock gauge and plumbed in a vacuum line up to the wheelhouse dash with a vacuum gauge in the engine instrument group -and this has been excellent for monitoring when the Racor filter in use is starting to need replacement. I'd strongly recommend this easy add-on now that I've seen how responsive it has been.

Trnaround

2013-01-20 23:56:56

thebowlerfamily, thanks for the input, that is a great idea bringing the gauge to the panel. Did you use the stock gauge or did you find a better alternative? Also what kind of vacuum line did you use between the gauge and the Racor?

salmon4u

2013-01-21 05:10:35

yes.. put two Racors inline before your engine filter. monitor the pressure.. and change them often.. this has worked well for me for over twenty years. also my opinion.. there's never been a more dependable diesel engine made than the 71 series Detroits.

thebowlerfamily

2013-01-21 08:21:46

I used a VDO vacuum gauge to match my other engine gauges and a high pressure fuel line (braid reinforced) that wouldn't collapse under vacuum -it works real well.

Trnaround

2013-01-21 15:23:23

Great information in this thread, thanks.

Salty

2013-01-21 18:46:34

I agree with trnaround, thanks.

thebowlerfamily

2013-01-22 01:26:05

Salty, Trnaround, thank you for all of the handy information you give all of us on here.

curmudgeon

2013-01-22 02:50:55

I have a vacuum gauge in the dash too and it's plumbed via tiny diameter copper using flare fittings from the Racor to within a couple feet of the gauge and then hose from there so it can flex to allow the panel to hinge open. Pure vacuum is only 15 psi so it doesn't take super-special hose to be okay. The newer Racor vacuum gauges have extra needles on the face that "remember" the highest and lowest vacuum so you can check every evening if you forget to look while running. Nice!

thebowlerfamily

2013-01-22 08:03:19

On our Cat 3208 we also have a check valve plumbed into our fuel supply line (which was on our original 3160), which seems to help considerably with fuel drain back during filter change. Does anyone else on here have this? If not, I wonder if it would be an improvement on other fuel systems to reduce air quantities in opened fuel systems?

Salty

2013-01-22 08:20:39

I was re-reading these posts and thought about the old 453 jimmies. My father got trained in Iowa as a diesel mechanic for the Navy during WW II. He put a 453 in the Nohusit in 1953 after the gas engine in it blew up at the fuel dock in Ketchikan. So, I grew up over a 453. When I bought the I Gotta from Marilyn and Bill George in 1986 it had the 453 they had put in it when they built it in 76. While noisy and oily, those engines were built for war time conditions and would run on almost anything, were easy to fix, and hard to kill.

Yes, afteryou, it got me through the pass, back to Sitka the next day, and through the rest of the season. For a lot of reasons the WW II technology diesels were a great addition to our fishing fleets and I regret being disrespectful toward them. They brought me home for many years growing up and earlier in my own career.

It was at the training in Iowa where my dad met my mom. So, I owe my very existence to these diesels.

Trnaround

2013-01-22 22:15:42

I can see how you can develop a fondness for a reliable piece of equipment alright, like a good friend. I haven't heard of a check valve after the Racor but it makes sense. When or if you have to change the filter fuel naturally is absorbed by the old filter and when the new one goes in there is always an airspace. I have a jug of diesel ready for topping it off so I am sure that the air is displaced when the lid goes on. I have a friend that plumbed a squeeze ball from an outboard fuel system in front of the Racor so he can pump fuel in and top off the filter. Seems like a good idea but I still just keep a little diesel on hand.

Salty

2013-01-23 01:55:27

Here is what I do. I mounted my Racor below the top level of my fuel tanks. Then, when I am thinking of changing oil, which is when I change my fuel filter, I go fill up the tanks. Then, while the oil is draining from the engine, I change the oil filter, and then the racor filter. I just turn the ball valve off on the way to the filter, change the filter, open the ball valve until the fuel fills the filter back up and then re-install the lid. Gravity does all the work, no need for squeeze ball or extra jug.

Trnaround

2013-01-23 05:53:12

Never thought of filling the tanks first, usually fill them on the way out of town. I'll give that a try next filter change. Thanks again.

Salty

2013-01-23 06:37:32

I seined with a highliner for a few years, when it was time to fuel up he always did it on the way in, before he went home.

Abundance

2013-01-24 06:37:07

I know that for a guy with nil mechanical knowledge and a desire to just push a button and go fishing every day, my 473 Jimmie's (I've had them on both of my boats) were exactly what I wanted. Sure, you have to change out the absorbent pad in the engine room every day, and the fuel man rubs his hands with glee when he sees me coming, but the only bad mechanical things to ever happen to are in my transmission. These old things will keep on running, even if only one cylinder still works (ask my Dad about that one), and the works are somewhat simple and purely analog. They truly are dinosaurs, and I will be putting in a modern engine when the day comes, but I am in no real hurry to get something unfamiliar yet. It will take a lot of diesel efficiency to cover over that kind of peace of mind.

ericv

2013-01-26 17:58:54

To comment on the original thread about Detroit's, I've mentioned some of this before in past postings. New technology that we see in today's modern diesels is remarkable. Just like depth sounders, GPS, radars, radios, computer nav software etc, we have see amazing advances that when researched and properly applied can have significant positive outcomes for us fishers. If I were a full time fisher and approaching that career much the same as a daily job, I would be all over these new advances for I have seen first hand how they have helped many. However, I am not in that category and despite my most heavy desire, will never be able to afford to upgrade to that dream status of a tier II diesel.

Our vessel has one of those dinosaur 4-53's, non-turbo with unknown hours since the hour meter has been out of service going on 12 years. The meter is an easy fix, yes, but being a simpleton, my Petro Marine pocket log book meticulously tracks my hours each year which are literally a drop in the bucket compared to hours many of my friends log annually. I have decades of years working around screamin' jimmies, be it the sea or in the woods, their roar is distinctive, so is their reliability and simplicity like others have noted. My seafaring friends know if I'm trolling or running when we chat on the VHF simply based on what level of noise that is penetrating their set. For some reason they even know when I am anchored and shut down when we chat. Knock on wood (i.e. my square head) our 4-53 main has faithfully gotten me home each and every trip. At a 5 to 6 knot cruising speed (about 1500 rpm's) on our 34' Daniels fiberglass hull - plus running the Dickinson stove from start of trip to end - plus trolling time - I have averaged between 1.0 to 1.3 gph over a period of 10 years. I cannot beat that type of economy at this time. To have heat for coffee and power to move and at that consumption rate, is fine by me. They are built to be run by a brainless knucklehead with no concept of diesel operation. I could thrash the absolute crap out of it like some fellow skidder, boom boat or fishing vessel operators I know do, but I choose to run it and treat it like my life depends on it - because it does. Like my survival gear, my treatment and care of our 4-53 is a critical part of my Life Insurance policy.

Full disclosure here - I do own stock in absorbent pads and Delo 100 40wt. The crew at Sitka's Petro Marine fuel dock are a swell bunch (really) and are always nice enough to have a bale of pads and a case of oil sitting on the counter before I even have a wrap around their dock cleats. My faithful 4-53 weeps like our current House Speaker (sorry, couldn't resist) not tears but oil, and it will never, ever rust. After a long grind of a day single-hand fishing, while others with modern tier II's drop the hook and rest, I religiously climb down into the small engine compartment and spend 15+ minutes wiping down the engine to turn it from black back to Detroit green. The drip pans are emptied and the oven trays that hold my double layered absorbent pads, now black and heavy with oil, are changed out. It is hot in there, stuffy, cramped and God(s) help you if you have any size to you as you won't fit down there to do the work. (if I have to sell her, it's one of few boats that will have height and girth restrictions for the prospective buyer). Before turning in for the night, I run the dip stick and top off the oil. Despite all this ritual, even when dog-ass-thrashed x 10, I do not once grumble or complain. When that surfaces in my mind, It is quickly slapped back as I simply ask myself - when has this 4-53 of mine failed me? Oil is changed every 200 hours, all filters including the fuel ones are done as well. The boat came set up with one large Racor fuel/water separator and the standard filter on the side of the engine and that has worked without fail. BioBore is added at the proper amount each and every fill up and she is always parked with the fuel tanks topped off to the brim - without fail - doesn't matter if its 12 gallons or 200. Maybe it is pure luck or maybe I am doing the right thing, all I know is that iron engine runs through thick and thin.

Even should it implode, I can secure a reconditioned 4-53 and tranny for a fraction of cost of the modern diesels. The life span of a properly reconditioned, installed and maintained 4-53 would easily out live the years I have left to sit behind the helm. Remember I am only a part-timer, if I worked the fisheries like many posters here, I'd be all over the newer technology. It is pure and simple economic reality for me and as long as those 4-53's and their Detroit siblings are out there, that is what will be in the belly of our boat. Parts are cheap and found in most ports or fairly quickly secured. The layout of the engines themselves is about as basic and straightforward as it gets. Is it enviro friendly? maybe not as much, can one go deaf being around them - hell yes (they do get quieter each year though). Those things can be mostly mitigated with good engine box insulation, TOP RATE hearing protection, proper containment and disposal of the leaked oil and soiled pads to assure that the oil hazard doesn't enter our pristine waters via bilge discharge.

My good friend Lee is my diesel adviser as he knows these engines like few others. When I was looking over the New Hope some 10 years ago to buy, we stood in the wheelhouse free from the seller's presence, our eyes fixed on the iron 4-53. I commented on how loud they are and weepy of oil etc. Lee in his quiet way simply said 5 words that I keep close in my brain - "it will get you home".

Eric