Summer King Salmon !!!
afteryou
2012-12-31 21:25:48
Ok so here’s an idea I have been kicking around in my head for a while now. A brand new way regulating summer King Salmon.
I have a fairly small boat. It’s not tiny but it is a modified boat that was not intended for use in ocean gales. The plus side to this boat is that it is both very economical to run and maintain. The boat works very well for the kind of fishing I have been doing the past few years. That said I really don’t want to have to buy a bigger boat. I would like that quarter mill. in my pocket instead.
I am sure that many of you will not like this idea very much at all. It seems to make sense to me from both an environmental standpoint as well as putting more Kings in my holds.
It seems to me that our summer King openings are a bit like the derby’s before IFQ came around. Settle down I don’t want IFQ King Salmon. It’s not quite that bad, but close.
Here’s what I think sucks about or summer King openings
(1) To heck with the weather get’em or don’t. This is probably fine for the big guy’s with Q’s to support that big hog of a boat (maybe a little jealous). It does not seem to work as well for people with smaller boats or enough common sense to keep their smaller boat around the corner so to speak.
(2) How does letting all of us loose at once into the high abundance areas make any sense at all. It’s like ready set go wipe them out, If their there at all. How many times have they been everywhere before or after a bad opening.
(3) I am sorry to bring this one up but I am sick of shaking dead or nearly dead kings off the back boat. What the h@!! kind of sense does that make. Yes I do make efforts to keep this to a minimum. But @&%$ me this is dumb.
(4) Less work for the welders and shipwrights do to pole joisting and greed. :o
I would like say that I am not suggesting any changes to the winter of spring fisheries. So here is what I propose.
I would like to see both summer openings done away with and a new system of adjustable bycatch % for Kings. Hopefully this would allow them to remain open all summer long.
Benefits
(1) With a little care we would almost never have to release a legal King.
(2) Less lead and wire lying at the base of rock piles.
(3) More controlled harvest.
(4) Safer for everyone involved. More sleep less weather ect.
(5) Allow for a more even distribution of the quota.
(6) Less work for the welders and shipwrights do to pole joisting and greed. :o
I would very much like to hear some feed back on this idea. I am sure I am missing a few points.
Thank for reading.
How would this work, unless they push the summer season back to late July? From what I've seen in my very limited experience, there just aren't enough/big enough Cohos in early July. How can the kings be bycatch when they are the vast majority of your catch? If boats are allowed out on the ocean, I don't see how it wouldn't be a derby.
afteryou
2012-12-31 23:50:01
“From what I've seen in my very limited experience, there just aren't enough/big enough Cohos in early July.”
“adjustable bycatch % for Kings.” I would hate to push anything back.
“If boats are allowed out on the ocean, I don't see how it wouldn't be a derby.”
I hate to say it but maybe it would be best for the stock if we did stay out of the high abundance areas and outside the summer line. :( As long as we still got our share and I think we would. :)
Thanks for your comments.
Abundance
2013-01-01 00:29:52
That was functionally what we had during the 2012 season. I have always liked the thought of kings as an adjustable bycatch fishery. I have heard that some boats would be for a fifty fifty July/August split for kings regularly, after it worked out nicely for them this year. Turning loose dead fish sickens me like very little else in my life. In some ways, it could be like rockfish. After you got your quota of rockfish, you used to have to through them overboard in large numbers so as not to exceed your bycatch limit. Nowadays you have to keep what rockfish you catch, but only get paid for so many. Somebody up high wised up that pitching those fish back in the water was wanton waste. It annoys me that nobody seems to feel that way about salmon, whether it was in a trawl net or off a hook. Maybe have an opening for fifty percent of the kings, then pursue the rest of the quota as trip limited byctach for our coho fishing. You would still be turning a few loose, but think that it would be minimized. I don't really target kings much anymore. They just don't pay enough for them in the summer. Maybe if we paced ourselves, we could get a little more value out of them. A lot of the hatchery kings are just showing up when we leave to go out to sea and catch feeders. A few guys who stayed behind did as well as I did at sea, when you take my fuel into account. I could have afforded to wait another week or so before heading out. The reason the quota went on so long this year was from the people quitting to go back inside to chase chums. That will probably continue to be a thing for a while anyway. Good luck getting anybody else to agree with us though.
Salty
2013-01-01 03:09:17
Great question, good answers, good luck finding support. Don't come knocking on my door.
Happy New Year.
afteryou
2013-01-01 03:41:21
Wow Salty! I was hoping for a more constructive and insightful post from you. I am not trying to push my idea I was just wondering why our system was set up the way it is. I did not say that my idea was any better. It just seemed to me like it might be.
I am sorry if I offended anyone. I am just trying to start an interesting discussion. You know the kind that keep forums worth reading. :D
spike christopher
2013-01-01 03:58:19
I wonder how many smaller salmon will be thrown back as those try to get the largest king possible as the season is left open. This is if a percentage is in effect. Southeast is a small portion of the state, you are not allowed to fish north of Cape Suckling, I have personally sport fished for king salmon all the way to the west end of Kodiak Island and have found it to be far more productive than Southeast. Because of the pressure of the Cordovia gillnetters in 1972 Clem Tillion a reprehensive of south central cut a deal that with them to stop the trollers from going north of Suckling as it might cut into the Cooper river run. At the time there was just a couple of trollers fishing full time out of Seward. It was nothing more than a political ploy to get reelected and had nothing to do with science. We now how a treaty and there is no way that the powers to be are going to change any of it, no matter how much sense it makes. The state allows all salmon fishing to happen in the state but trolling. In south central you can seine, gillnet, beach sites with gillnets, and of course sports fish. Now you are wondering why all the history, I wonder what would happen if you opened the state, would it take the pressure off the
Southeast fleet and allow a longer season? I personally believe there has been far to much work put into the system we now have, it actually works. I have spoke to several old time fisherman and they think that it isn’t perfect but it does pretty good, I would like to see the whole state opened up. I am sure there will be some good input to this forum.
I know that if we shoot a deer and leave behind the ribs we find ourselves charged legally and fined big time, yet they want you to throw back a large dead king and think nothing of it. Harry on the Loretta had a good idea, the dead kings should be brought in and given to the needy or senior citizens or the schools but not just thrown away.
I believe trollers are treated very badly compared to the other fisheries.
It is a very difficult subject.
FV_Wild_Card
2013-01-01 04:16:16
:roll:
tkbluefin
2013-01-01 04:43:00
To further on Spike's comments, we should try to push for even an experimental troll fishery above Cape Suckling.
I know that there is a lot of history about how we ended up where we are. However, troll caught salmon are extremely
high quality and drive revenue and a tax base for the state and the good 'ol USA.
I think 2012 was a very interesting "experiment" on the attainment of the king fishery. An adjustment of the percentages
could be a viable alternative.
Abundance
2013-01-01 05:58:08
I think that a guy could make some enemies, pushing these issues too hard. I am on the side of tweaking the king fishery, as I indicated above. I don't mean to say that the fishery is broken and needs fixing. Immoral as I think it is to be forced to throw life and food away, we aren't taking enough to affect the resource. I personally would be more than willing to donate my bycaught kings to those in need. I think that trawlers inside of state waters have to keep their salmon bycatch for charity. But no, some troller might sell one. Obviously, its better to feed a few thousand of them to the crabs than allow that to happen. Truthfully, even if they did expand the troll area I know I would never take advantage of it, so I don't worry about it much.
afteryou
2013-01-01 19:57:42
I like the idea of keeping all the dead fish for donation. I think this would be better than feeding the Eagles and Crab.
Abundance, when I wrote my post I had not thought about the similarity between last summer and what the idea would bring. I know a few boats, including myself, that got more than our usual share of kings last summer. I also do not spend much time chasing Kings any more. I was forced into the ocean last year when my Humpies dried up. I like Humpy fishing the best. I’m not proud.
Spike, You make a really good point about throwing back the small fish on the hunt for bigger ones. I suspect that people would do that as well, though I had not thought of it, thanks. I think the charter fleet does something like this. I am sure a lot of time has been put into our current system and I agree that it does work pretty well. But that means it could be better. Why stop short of perfection?
I’ll say it again. I am not trying to pass this off as a better plan. I am only trying to find out why it wouldn’t be.
Wild Card, :roll: ?
Thank you for the time you guys took to write good posts!
jgallagher33
2013-01-01 20:19:07
Keeping all the by catch and having them counted could very well turn out to have some very bad unintended consequences. Especially since were dealing with treaty fish. as bad as it sounds the less they know may be better for our livelihood .
Salty
2013-01-01 21:38:01
I am sorry if I offended anyone. I am just trying to start an interesting discussion. You know the kind that keep forums worth reading.
afteryou
Member
Posts: 11
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:43 am
Location: AK
I am sorry afteryou, I actually wrote a real long post in response originally in which I detailed my involvement in King salmon management going back to 1973 and my version of the history of how things ended up the way they are now. But, in re-reading it I thought it exhibited too much hubris even for me. So, I deleted it and put in the short response which I regret now.
I always have and continue to encourage participation and new ideas. My belief is the more creative ideas and perspectives we hear and consider the better the possibilities for improving the troll fishery as it evolves. But, there is risk and sometimes cost, as I have personally experienced, to rocking the boat too much, to putting forth ideas, proposals, without vetting them through some of the troll leadership and managers.
The troll fishery is an incredibly diverse fishery so considering management plans that benefit the whole fleet while protecting the interests of those most dependent on and involved in the fishery can be incredibly complex and divisive.
For example: Some trollers are geared and crewed up to handle over 1,000 salmon or up to 10,000 pounds per day on a sustained basis while most trollers do not have the systems, the crew, the plans for, or experience at producing even a third of that for even one day. Some trollers have the vessel and equipment to fish for days in sustained 30 knot SE or NW winds on the coast while most of us are looking for the lee in anything above 25 knots. Some trollers know exactly what lure works best in that spot when the fish are in that kind of feed and will triple even the best troller who does not have that lure. Some trollers know exactly when to be where at certain stages of the tide depending on the strength of the tide and will smoke people who are even a few yards off the spot.
The truth is that some trollers are dependent on doing much better than the average using their equipment, crew, experience, and initiative to excel. I don't think going to some sort of Chinook to coho ratio is a good idea. At the very least it rewards good coho fishermen at the expense of great Chinook trollers. At the worst it rewards part timers at the expense of full timers. And in my case, since I can't afford to target coho, it punishes me for choosing to pursue chums and pinks.
Finally, Alaska trollers have done a tremendous job of reducing Chinook encounters during the non-retention fisheries and we aren't getting credit for it as dictated by the US Canada salmon treaty. I had an observer for 10 days on my boat one year during which we caught hundreds of coho and had one recorded encounter with a Chinook which we released alive. Since I have started targeting chums I go days without ever seeing a Chinook of any size. For another project last year a friend and I analyzed all kinds of ADF&G by-catch information on all the salmon fisheries in SE Alaska. In brief it surprised even us how clean the troll fishery in SE Alaska is, how clean the SE salmon fisheries are, particularly when compared (actually there is no comparison) to other fisheries, such as trawling. But, after discussions with other trollers, we never used that information because making your particular segment of the salmon fishery look better than others in by-catch discussions is not good for fisheries in general.
So, be careful what you think about, particularly in writing, on the internet. Corresponding with your rep on the ATA board, on the CTA board, or going to local ADF&G AC meetings is a good way to get educated.
Happy New Year
afteryou
2013-01-02 00:29:55
Salty, I too am sorry. I did not mean to imply that the people who have worked hard to get this fishery where it is today had not done a good job or worked their butt off. I know you work hard for us and you have my respect. Thank you for your effort it is greatly appreciated.
Having started my trolling career in the system we have today I had never thought of it as two different fleets. I understand back in “the day” there were boats that pretty much only fished king salmon. I know at least one old timer where this is true.
After reading your post I am starting to see how spreading of the resource among the lazy and less educated would be an un-American thing to do. Rewarding those that work the hardest is a good thing. I guess I was not seeing two fleets, just one and that the harder they fished the more fish they caught Coho, Humpies, Dogs, Kings whatever.
One point I’m confused on is that I thought this was a good place to learn and discus ideas with the fleet.
I quote akfisher78 out of the
Going directly to our leaders to have a discussion about why we do what we do so I can be “educated” sounds a bit creepy to me. Why is this such a sore subject? :?
Once and Future
2013-01-02 01:03:11
In a nutshell, you can't have an open, honest discussion on an internet forum because there are those who will take snippets out of context and use it against you.
I know that is hard to accept because it may be our nature to be honest and open. But the world does not play fair.
We are in a struggle for survival. You can look at the posts of the Norwegian small boat fisherman, and see how they are being forced out of business. What would their fishing history be? A thousand years older than Alaska's commercial fishing fleet?
I'm not saying don't post or float ideas. But before I hit "submit", I stop to think how everyone from animal rights activists, to fish farmers, to other gear groups could twist my words and use them against me.
I remember a snotty post someone placed on here in response to one of Salty's posts, asking a leading question about how much fuel we use to catch a salmon. This proves that not everyone on this site is a friend.
akfisher1978
2013-01-02 01:14:04
One and Future. That could be one of the best posts ever put up on this Forum thank you!
Abundance
2013-01-02 01:48:42
i understand the necessity of being cautious, but I think that I will be a lot more so after reading Once and Future's post. Thanks for that. I personally don't think of ourselves as being "two fleets", but more like a dozen little fractions that can get a bit lumped together. We have the chum/pink boats, the chum/coho boats, the king/coho boats, the open ocean boats, the terminal harvest boats, the freezer boats, the direct market boats and so on and so on. What regs look good to us are the ones that benefit our personal operation. I like this I idea of a smaller, spread out king season because it would benefit me. If the majority of trollers think that is a good idea, then we will probably see it come about one day. Personally, I think that it is nice that we get the best of both worlds here. We get to have small, high value king salmon fishing October through June, and an opportunity to go for the big smash for a few weeks in July. As small timers we may get annoyed by the king price dropping to nothing overnight, but we do other things if want. About king bycatch, I did reduce that to almost nothing this year by simply shortening my flashers to chum length. King salmon fled in disgust from the things, but my coho catch stayed steady or even improved. Something to try out.
JYDPDX
2013-01-02 03:58:57
I think what afteryou is proposing here is to step back and make an objective evaluation of our summer system for king openings and look hypothetically at what we could change to improve value and efficiency while reducing by-catch. I don't understand why that is such a taboo subject.
I too have a major disgust for shaking kings, regardless of if they say the mortality rate is low. It is my understanding that I have to do this so that the big grounds boats can blaze out and get their crack at hitting the motherload twice a year in-between switching back over to longlining (I'm exaggerating here) But to varying degreres, if this is not how it is, then why do we have derbys?
I also must suggest that flooding the market with Kings on two separate occasions per Summer compromises the market price (I'm no expert on this) but thinking in terms of supply and demand and comparing the price we get in the winter (when there is a steady small supply) to summer, It seems that possibly a large portion of the value of our summer King harvest is wasted by flooding the market with perishable product all at once. That hurts the fleet as a whole. Having a more regular supply of Kings for restaurants throughout the summer could also help with product recognition as it would be available fresh all summer and not just after openings.
Frankly the only justification I can think of for these derbys is that those who have invested in elite boats have large payments and depend on doing better than average to make those payments. I don't think this necessarily makes it the right way to do the harvest. We are all permit holders and all have equal rights to the fish. Certainly, eliminating derbys would generate big changes and I'm not sure of all of the big picture implications, however, It is undeniable that derbys are old school, not necessary and facilitate waste in fuel, by-catch and product value.
Afteryou, whether intentional or not, this is a subject a lot of people have been talking about after what happened in August with the "accidental" long king opening. A lot of us little guys got a taste of how we can make good money on kings, in a secure dependable manner. Remember, there are only a few highlinners and many more of us, we have a larger voice, let's start using it! Join ATA and unite.
Kelper
2013-01-02 04:51:56
I agree that it's time to take a look at ways we can get more $ for our fish. If it means moving some kings to May/June to harvest for better prices before the market gets completely flooded, then so be it. If it means leaving more fish to harvest in Aug for higher prices, then we need to look at that too. It should all be on the table to maximize income for trollers.
Salty
2013-01-02 05:09:35
I guess I should have posted my version of how we got where we are in Troll management and why. Some of the battles won and lost and the campaigns now and foreseeable. Maybe tomorrow. Good perspectives and advice offered here by others. Thank you. I am sure some trollers living and dead are chuckling or cringing at "Salty" recommending caution on what you say or post.
For example: being prepared to handle a lot of fish does not mean you ever realize it.
Garrett is right on in that there is not one or two troll perspectives but many. I have dozens myself, and am personally conflicted on which direction the industry should go all the time.
But, don't think that all trollers are just thinking of themselves. I have met and worked with many who saw and worked for the best interests of the industry even when it cost them personally.
Tom says "Keep your hand on it."
I say "Keep your oar in."
Abundance
2013-01-02 05:48:39
I really do think that we should focus our kings salmon catches away from the times of year that the gillnetters or our fellow trollers on the west coast get into the business. It is better for all of us. That does not take care of of any summer bycatch issues, but it would certainly increase the value of our salmon a dollar or two. I don't think that the state would like us to fish for wild feeders when the hatchery kings are returning, but the hatchery openings are really a waste of time in May. it is just too early. What we usually catch in Clarence or Chatham are wild fish in May, we might as well be allowed to get a shot at a large chunk of our our summer quota in April/May and then go for the hatchery kings in June and early July until the cohos and chums show up, then get the rest of the quota as a limited bycatch. Even with the elite bagging their big trips, the price should stay up a bit higher. Of course, the processors wouldn't much care for cranking up the freezers and getting a new crew shipped in a month earlier than before. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if they fought change harder than a crusty old highliner. I always like your informed opinions, Eric, and agree that I am torn between a handful of different opinions, usually depending on what I think I would like to fish for this year. If the derby wasn't around, it would meant the end of some of my fondest experiences on the ocean, when we really landed on the big slabs. Obviously, I wouldn't mind changing it out for something better, but it is sobering to think that the couple of big 150-200 king days that I did as kid deckhand had would never be experienced again by another kid. Oh well, a good bite of fifteen pound chums is almost as fun.
Carol W
2013-01-02 19:02:24
This subject is one of the reasons we should all belong to ATA and then sit down in several meetings spread out over the region. Our fleet needs to have this discussion and look at all the possibilities currently I don't beleave we are economically optimizing our King harvest. I am not sure this is where we should be discussing this, if we all belonged to ATA and they had a secure sight then we could have a open discussion.
Tom
Keep your Hand on It
JYDPDX
2013-01-02 19:54:26
I had another post written up pushing this issue in detail but am in agreement with Tom. It is sensitive and elaborate. Perhaps this is not the place for an in-depth discussion on this topic. However, this and other items should be discussed and with the fleet so impossibly spread out and busy in the spring and summer, how is it really possible?
Someone told me that only about %20 of the fleet pays dues. I don't know if that is true but if it is we should be ashamed of ourselves and lack of organization. I am ashamed of myself for my ignorance before joining. Even though we all have differing agendas and goals, we are all trollers and we are much stronger and better with a united voice than having only a few contributors and many dissenters.
Salty
2013-01-02 23:44:07
I agree with both Tom and JYDPDX, internal allocation of salmon, particularly Chinook, within the troll fleet is tough stuff due to the diversity of the fleet and the complexity of the problems.
A little history here:
Most of the old time trollers feel that the internal division of the troll fleet harvest between the winter-spring- and two summer openings by the "Troll Task Force" in the early 90's is some kind of constitution for the troll fleet and should not be tinkered with. Well, I made the motion at the ATA Board to set up the "Troll Task Force" and I never intended for it to define the troll fishery forever. The main reason I made that motion was to delay action on limiting the winter troll fishery because those of us favoring the winter fishery did not have the votes to get what we wanted on the ATA Board, which was ready to propose a limit to the winter fishery, and we felt we would do better by both delaying action and activating the winter fleet to fight for a better deal. In retrospect, the strategy worked as we got a better deal. However, many in the troll fleet were spooked by the internal battle and have been wary of entering into divisive battles ever since.
But, while still relatively conservative in my view, I found the ATA Board to be much more responsive in the last few years than it used to be to change. I support ATA, pay my dues every year, and even when I disagree with some of their positions I respect both the board members dedication and the vast majority of the work they and Dale do that benefits all of us. In terms of supporting our work of the Chum Trollers Association over the last few years, ATA was tremendously helpful.
When I am on a board I read all the letters from people I am representing. I bet the ATA board members and Dale do the same. If you have a good idea and find some other trollers support, or even if you don't, write a letter, go to a meeting, run for the board. Talk is cheap, but the written word becomes part of the process of building a record for change.
One of the things to remember is that the majority of the troll fleet are part timers. Very few of us troll every month of the year. What is best for part timers, the majority of the fleet, may not be best for the full timers.
Keep your oar in.
afteryou
2013-01-03 00:20:05
Sadly I feel that I may have over stated the by-catch issue for the purpose of selling an idea. In reality there is no problem in this area.
As I read this thread I am beginning to see a bigger picture unfold. I have been trolling since 2000 give or take. I had never been trolling before I bought my permit nor were any of my relatives involved with fishing. Don’t get me wrong I have a whole life of boat experience. I don’t mean Bayliners and Lunds just not fishing. So anyway I basically just went fishing one day caught a pile of fish (didn’t know how to clean them but my deckhand did) my first day so my mentor stopped talking to me. I guess what I am getting at is that I knew nothing of the history of the fishery or why it is the way it is. Over the years I have gotten bits a pieces but it’s only as I have gotten older that I even care about how the world works. In some ways being a punk kid with their head up their @#$ is so much less stressful and it was sure nice when I knew everything. :D
If a person diligently reads every post in this thread there is a lot to be learned.
I don’t think we need to stop discussing this topic but after reading what I have read I do think we should continue cautiously.
That said there seems to be at least at least one benefit to spreading out the summer King catch, price. Not to mention the safety benefits of eliminating derby style fishing.
Abundance
2013-01-03 01:07:50
I have personally been a year round troller since I got my own permit about five years ago, and my family has fished winter kings since they became a thing. It seems to me that interest in the winter and spring fisheries has been on the increase. I think that almost all of the resident trollers would fish year round if they felt they could make a living at it. The fact is that out of 1132 Alaska troll permits fished last year, 968 are Alaskan residents. I read that the CoOp saw it's members age drop this last meeting. The face of the troll industry has changed a lot since the old days. It seems to me like the fishery revitalized after the the price of salmon crept up from dirt poverty level to maybe possibly making a living if you work hard enough level over the last decade. The fleet has seen some considerable turnover the last few years, and a new crop of managers have come about as well. I know that in shrimping, I am pretty impressed by the states boldness in trying out new techniques and their eagerness to listen to us. This last season, they tried out several exciting new ways to manage shrimp, from testing out Canadian style spawner index ratio in Seymore Canal to testing size and age inseason in Ernest Sound and Sumner Strait. I am particularly happy about the age testing one, as they can halt the fishery as soon as the average size drops below the thresh hold, allowing them stop over harvesting as soon as it appears. In the old days, I can remember my dad getting so frustrated by their stubbornness in holding to downright foolish management practices. They also have done some interesting and helpful thing with the goeduck divers the past couple of years. What I am saying is, things are more likely to change now than they have ever been before in my career.
SE AK
2013-01-04 18:19:09
After reading a bit of this conversation the other day I called ADF@G hoping to speak to Patty Skannes about last year's long summer king opening. I ended up talking to the assistant troll biologist, who's name I can't remember right now but he was very helpful and told me that our long season was due to uncaught winter/spring quota being carried over to the summer season, which is currently managed as a 70%-30% split between the first and second openings. Quite a bit of quota was left over after the first opening and it carried over to the second. Catch rates were still low and managers were worried about not getting the quota caught by end of season. I asked what would happen if the 70-30 split became 50-50. He said that he has heard a lot of support for similar ideas recently, that the concern was not getting all quota caught and leaving fish in the water. What about a more even split and controlling catch by opening and closing the high abundance areas? A few highliners wouldn't like it but it would benefit the vast majority of the fleet. So what if sometimes some quota doesn't get caught? We're having king salmon problems anyway. Maybe the increased value of the catch would make up for it. I'm sure that there is some problem with this idea, maybe somebody could tell me what it is? I'll be joining ATA this year, if only to stay better informed.
Salty
2013-01-04 19:06:49
Grant Hagerman is the assistant troll biologist. A great guy, family originally from Petersburg.
FV_Wild_Card
2013-01-05 14:47:32
Happy New Year.
This is the only reply to this topic that makes sense. I completely agree, with the exception of the first sentence.
I am not sorry.
Abundance
2013-01-05 19:15:31
So what would you like to see change in the fishery? Are you sure you didn't like anybody's suggestions? Some of them sounded pretty darn good. Obviously, we all make sense to ourselves, but your being of a contrary opinion should be your opportunity to say why we are wrong. Care to explain yourself?
Salty
2013-01-05 22:07:25
In response to ideas and concerns expressed in this thread I thought this was apropos.
From the New York Times Magazine. From "Be wrong as fast as you can." by Hugo Lindgren.
....... "I recently saw a Charlie Rose interview with John Lasseter, a founder of Pixar, about the creative process behind his movies. Pixar’s in-house theory is: Be wrong as fast as you can. Mistakes are an inevitable part of the creative process, so get right down to it and start making them. Even great ideas are wrecked on the road to fruition and then have to be painstakingly reconstructed. “Every Pixar film was the worst motion picture ever made at one time or another,” Lasseter said. “People don’t believe that, but it’s true. But we don’t give up on the films.”
Hugely successful people tend to say self-deprecating stuff like this when they go on “Charlie Rose.” But I heard something quite genuine in Lasseter’s remarks, an acknowledgment of just how deep into the muck of mediocrity a creative project can sink as it takes those first vulnerable steps from luxurious abstraction to unforgiving reality.
Ideas, in a sense, are overrated. Of course, you need good ones, but at this point in our supersaturated culture, precious few are so novel that nobody else has ever thought of them before. It’s really about where you take the idea, and how committed you are to solving the endless problems that come up in the execution."........
Their is a great book on this topic "Made To Stick" by Chip and Dan Heath. Why some good ideas succeed and others fail. Basically it can be summed up by this acronym:
S= Simple
U= Unexpected
C= Concrete
C= Credible
E= Emotional
S= Short
S= Story
I use it when I am asked to make motivational speeches or presentations. I boil it down to SUCCESS.
afteryou
2013-01-05 23:08:48
I wonder, how do our AK King openings affect WA, OR, CA prices or vice versa?
John Murray
2013-01-06 00:12:45
Thanks for bringing up some subjects which are always going to bring up the level of discussion and debate.
As far as by-catch goes,many of us have taken means to reduce incidental catch with good success.There are many good methods, some have probably been kicked around on this forum before ie short flasher leaders.
I'll offer one or three that seems to work well for me: moving your gear around and/ or moving ones location.Sometimes it is hard to get away from the smiley's but most of the time one can.Its always a pleasure to move off shore where there is less boat traffic and less kings or move into the migration corridors and still catch.You might catch more humpies but in most corridors there's hardly any kings.On a bite last year (offshore)I maybe shook 5 kings in two weeks.
FV_Wild_Card
2013-01-06 14:43:13
EXPLAINATION:
If it ain't broke don't fix it.
The price going up due to the proposed redistribution of the summer chinook quota is a forgone conclusion that I see no evidence in support of.
Not catching all of the quota IS a big deal. Fail to catch it and watch the quota get slashed down to a level you CAN catch.
It does not benefit my and other businesses in any way shape or form.
rlsprague
2013-01-06 16:00:12
I agree if it's not broke don't fix it ! But it is broke as exhibited by the July 1st price drops due directly to market flooding of king salmon and factor in the quota being short 2yrs in a row.If these are signs of of healthy fisheries than I guess Wild Card is correct.You can come calling at my door and will be welcome.Chip Sprague F/V L.K.Ann
Kelper
2013-01-06 16:30:47
If it ain't broke don't fix it.
The price going up due to the proposed redistribution of the summer chinook quota is a forgone conclusion that I see no evidence in support of.
Not catching all of the quota IS a big deal. Fail to catch it and watch the quota get slashed down to a level you CAN catch.
It does not benefit my and other businesses in any way shape or form.
I guess it depends if we as a fleet ever wants to consider improving the way we do things. Other fisheries sure have, and now we need to rely on the board of fisheries to keep other fisheries from improving their products so we can sell ours at a higher quality. (recent ruling to keep gillnet boats at 32' in Bristol Bay.)
At what point will we as a fleet decide to actually commission a study to see what's best for us, as a whole? I sure haven't heard of any studies proving one thing or another.
I recall someone bashing Casey on here saying he couldn't "hang with the big boys", and toting his big investment that allowed him to go to the fairweathers and load up. I was rather disappointed with that attitude, as Casey is now not posting, and us smaller operations seem to have to give way to the larger more aggressive operations when it comes to voicing opinions.
Salty
2013-01-06 20:11:05
I am not a "If it ain't broke don't fix it guy." But, lot of trollers are of that view, many in leadership positions in our industry, on the ATA, SPC, and at least a couple on the NSRAA Board. So, that philosophy is well represented by the decision makers guiding our industry. I have had, and still have, troller friends with that philosophy. I respect it and many of those trollers.
But, I see the world differently because of my life experience, the emphasis on education, both in schooling and from life, in my family history. My philosophy is one of "constant improvement" both in my business, and in my behavior. Perhaps because both need so much improvement.
From computer technology, to ergonomic gear and fish handling systems, to improved propulsion, to the politics of trolling, and conservation of the salmon resource I am constantly looking for, studying, and testing new ideas.
My parents fished from 46 to 54 without a fathometer or radar. They were great at triangulating landmarks and running drags without a radar or fathometer. That system never "broke". Whenever I hear people say "If it isn't broke, don't fix it" I wish they would go back to trying to make if fishing without all the "improvements". Trying to make it trolling in SE without the aquaculture associations, with SPC trying to make it without a plant of their own, without computer and GPS guided positioning, with the Japanese still high seas gillnetting, with fish farms all over SE, with seiners still fishing the coast from Icy Point to Noyes, with no round troll markets for pinks and chums.
Sometimes things are "broke" and you don't realize it unless you are looking for and testing the idea of the alternatives.
Abundance
2013-01-06 23:34:24
I was of the opinion of "it's not broken, don't fix it" myself for a long time. I still believe that we have the best managed and laid out salmon fishery in the world. It is definitely not broken. but did anybody not get a shock when you sold your first load of kings this summer? I was getting twice that much money just a week before. I have a sad feeling that it is not going to be going up anytime soon either. It may also be true that the moving the main king season to another time of year would not fix the problem, that frozen kings just aren't selling like they should. Beefing up the five month long winter/spring fresh market is one possible way of getting around that. Currently, I think that Seattle is the only real market that is being utilized for those fish. There is a whole nation, world actually, that has never seen a fresh winter/spring king salmon. I know the price for spring kings usually takes a steep drop when Copper River opens up to gillnetters. The only real advantage that we have over the netters is our ability to get get fish on the market when they cannot. Tweaking the fishery a bit to reflect that reality makes some sense to me. Look at some of the tweaks that have been made over the past couple of years. This year we will be getting more early chum opportunities up north, which could end up meaning a lot to the guys who fish there. We will get to keep cohos a couple of weeks earlier, which could end up helping out in Port Protection and Clarence where sometimes a lot of cohos had to be shook loose in early June. The fairly new Kendrick Bay/Duke Island spring king fishery has saved some peoples bacon before. Somebody had to think these things up.