Handtrollers snagging at Bear cove?

khaos

2012-11-04 01:59:05

Only been to Bear Cove once, having heard of the large numbers of returning kings to the hatchery program. They were indeed there, but I witnessed a strange mix of user groups all vying for the king schools that were traveling up and down the shorelines. I saw large 40'+ trollers fishing the deeper contours, while smaller vessels worked in closer, along with a bunch of charter boats and local fisherman. Fish were rolling on the surface, mostly in the shallows, and even smaller boats were there casting to them. Some had HT painted on the sides and had weighted treble hooks, jerking away like madmen every time they saw a fish jump. Saw them get quite a few.

Can these really be handtrollers?

I have no problem with the smaller boats chasing kings in the shallows, and some were surely casting lures or jigs to hook the kings, but SNAGGING? I guess it isn't against the law, but I've always thought of trollers as the user group that takes the very BEST care of our fish, and that reputation is what has kept our fishery alive when we can't keep up numberswise. It just seemed like it was painting a bad picture right in the middle of a lot of witnesses. I don't see how they could get a decent price for fish that have big treble marks on their sides and bellies.

When I asked some local fisherman about it, I heard some shocking things. Apparently, these same Bear Cove snaggers, target other runs as well, working the kings over until they turn black, switching to chums when they get there there, even concentrating on sockeye and pinks on smaller remote stream mouths.

Anybody else know anything about this?

I know some small local streams that only have a return of a few hundred fish at most. Somebody anchors up at the mouth and they could really do some damage to a fragile stock. Hate to think that this is happening around here.

Do processors still pay trollers for dark or damaged fish?

Like I said, it was a long time ago when i was there - maybe some of the Sitka guys can update me on this situation?

Abundance

2012-11-04 03:42:47

Well, I'm not a Sitka fisherman, but I can tell you that the local buyers here would be very dissapointed in you if you brought in a load of marked up or unusually dark fish. They would buy them, at a reduced priced, and maybe give you a tough talking to about it. I have snagged a number of fish on my troll gear, and they have always bought them without comment, but they did explain to me once that they would only take the undamaged fillet off of the carcass. I've wondered about the creekmouth fishermen depleting little runs before, but it never seems to happen. I doubt they get much more than the bear sitting upstream. I know there were a few times this summer when I wanted to start snagging chums with a fishing pole. It would have been a lot more affective than my troll gear.

Salty

2012-11-04 18:15:44

The NSRAA Board, ADF&G, Board of Fish, and local processors have dealt with this short lived unfortunate behavior by a few "snaggers". It is no longer a problem in this area.

The wonderful thing about trolling is that we give the salmon an opportunity to offer themselves to us for harvest and high quality handling by giving them the choice whether to "bite" or not. Snagging has no place in the Alaska troll fishery. By harvesting each salmon carefully, one at a time, and personally taking their sacrifice for our food, our livelihood, almost every troller develops a deep respect, a reverence, for each salmon spirit that comes to us.

Years ago I read an Essay by Tom Jay, certainly one of the high priests of salmon worshippers, on troll harvest. It changed my perspective forever. To put it in spiritual terms "snagging" is an abomination to trollers.

akfisher78

2012-11-04 18:49:23

This past august I saw some hand trollers at Hidden Falls tied to the boundary net and they were throwing spinners and both catching and snagging Coho! Illiegal or not it wasnt a very classy move in my opinion. Easily half of the fish were snagged!

khaos

2012-11-04 22:44:54

I agree, Salty, and I'm glad you guys put an end to that. We might have to do something like that at Hidden Falls too.

Salty

2012-11-05 00:11:59

The NSRAA Board has included an agenda item on Handtrolling at Hidden Falls. I had a phone call from one of the participants this summer and invited him to address the Board. I have not witnessed the activity but have heard about it over the years. Any comments or insights appreciated.

Trnaround

2012-11-05 14:22:09

That is disappointing to hear they are using their hand troll permits that way. Hand trolling is a great way to learn to manage troll gear, learn to fish inside areas and gain an appreciation for the method of fishing. (not to mention to gain an appreciation for hydraulics) This snaggery may create a new category ; the "Belowliner". You may be a Belowliner if.........lol. Hope you all winter well ,thanks for the interesting posts.

frozenatsea

2012-11-11 16:27:57

Salty

2012-11-11 21:21:56

Frozen at sea, thanks for the comments.

At the higher levels of trolling salmon we must entice salmon to bite our lures when they are not feeding.

"Sacrifice" = the person, animal, or object surrendered, destroyed, killed, or offered. While correct as far as it goes "sacrifice" in retrospect, was not the best word in that sentence. A better wording to communicate my meaning would have been "lives".

By harvesting each salmon carefully, one at a time, and personally taking their "lives" for or our food, our livelihood, almost every troller develops a deep respect, a reverence, for each salmon spirit that comes to us.

"....salmon spirit that comes to us." Absolutely not kidding. Having worked thousands of hours to conserve, enhance, and sustain salmon I have developed an admiration for these amazing creatures that reflects the respect toward these "spirits" communicated to me by my Alaska native friends.

I am going to upload a couple of pictures from Valentines day in 2009 when my wife and I spent a day volunteering at the Sheldon Jackson hatchery to give you a feeling about the wonder of these salmon we pursue.

Salty

2012-11-11 21:23:22

~~[attachment=0]~~Chinook Salmon eggs Feb 2009 SJ.jpg[/attachment]

Salty

2012-11-11 21:24:14

~~[attachment=0]~~Chinook Smolt Feb 2009.jpg[/attachment]

Salty

2012-11-11 21:30:56

~~[attachment=0]~~King salmon in net.jpg[/attachment]

Salty

2012-11-11 21:36:33

Thanks for the opportunity to clarify my meaning and explain myself a little better.

Eric Jordan

Abundance

2012-11-12 00:00:52

It is true that Mr. Jordan expresses a more... soulful view than many of us, including myself, might be willing or capable of expressing. I, and probably a lot of fisherman, have a tendency to be more practical than spiritual about our world. An example might be with hunting. Some hunters feel very strongly about unsportsmanlike behavior. They view it as disrespectful to the animal to take it too easily. A person like me would counter that the poor dumb critter doesn't care a bit how or why it died. How it ended up in your freezer is the last concern you or the animal would have. Likewise the example of snagging or netting compared to trolling. The fish is dead and in the boat, and certainly doesn't care a whit whether the hook hit its belly or its jaw. That is not necessarily a good viewpoint. A person who takes such a pragmatic view may never devolve into abusiveness, but one need only look at the environmental record to see that it usually did in the past. People like Eric, who care deeply about the moral and ethical implications of how we take our food, tend to be the ones who are the most active at setting the rules and standards for the future. Because of people like him, we have an environmentally friendly fishery, a good market reputation, and a friendly community. I can easily see myself being one of those guys who were snagging. I'm just glad that there are people out there making sure that can't.

Abundance

2012-11-12 03:09:38

I think that I should have clarified that I consider all life wonderful and awe inspiring on all levels, and I think that pretty much everyone who chose to be a troller can be reasonably expected to have a higher than usual connection to the world around us. Money must mean a little less to us than much of the world. Some of us express that with a more poetic manner than the rest of us.

khaos

2012-11-12 03:42:44

We've all accidentally snagged fish on our troll gear, and we've all sold some of those fish as well. It happens. And to tell you the truth, I don't have any real issue with snagging in general. If legal, I have no problem with folks snagging fish to eat, it's just another way of fishing.

The issue I was not understanding was how we, as commercial trollers could sell intentionally snagged fish - without it having a negative impact on our prices, reputation, and relationships with processor crews. It's really hard to conk a snagged fish (head is usually down under the water), so they get gaffed midbody, or netted and flipped into the boat, flopping and throwing scales and blood everywhere. Not exactly the way we treat the salmon we catch trolling. Are they all sold as #2's?

Also, fish don't bite well after the school is targeted by snaggers, and it really hurts everyone else trying to actually hook the fish in the mouth.

Maybe there should be a "snag permit" for those that want to commercially fish this way, and they could sell their fish at seine prices, in seine areas. Find your own little area and do what you want, but blatantly snagging in front of 100 other boats just isn't good for Trollers Image. Just think about what the other user groups will say about this at a board meeting.

Salty

2012-11-12 04:00:35

I crewed on a seiner off and on from 67 to 80. I also crewed on a boat buying seine fish in 1966. In the old days when the guys pewed the salmon, often anywhere in the body out of dry holds the seine quality would not be much better than snag quality. These days with tanked, refrigerated holds the seine quality fish is much better, likely better in most cases than salmon with big treble hook scars on them.

Abundance

2012-11-12 06:05:33

I doubt that a snagged fish is going to taste very different from a biter, but I am sorry to say that a seiner is likely to have better fish delivering every day with RSW than a troller icing for five days. A big change from the past. My mother says that growing up in Denver in the fifties-sixties, they would open a can of salmon and it would stink and taste very fishy. Nowadays, a can of pink salmon from the store tastes as good as what I have on my shelf. I agree that intentionally snagging fish should be discouraged, particularly if it becomes a trend, not because it's immoral, but because the quality of the fish would take a dip on the day that they pitch off. It could mess with a fresh market to have a bunch of marked fish to come in at once. Also, as I mentioned with hunting a little while back, it may not matter much to me whether a deer gets taken from your rocking chair with a sniper rifle or you jump on it from a tree limb with your bowie knife, but the laws placed on us keep us from doing things too easy for a reason. Human nature is to seek out the easiest and most efficient way of doing a a thing as possible. That's good when designing a new technology, not so cool when killing a school of fish. Still, I don't see snagging dark hatchery chums as a big deal.

salmon4u

2012-11-12 08:53:05

snagging while not socially acceptable seems to really be just netting on a small scale. Hey.. maybe chum trollers should just troll through the water at 8 knots dragging 1000 treble hooks....??? ha ha ...NOT! : )

Trnaround

2012-11-12 14:39:34

I think the worst thing about snagging fish on a commercial scale is control of the escapement. If you allow it near the terminal areas, the fish are a little too vulnerable. Seiners have limits to how close in they can fish because they are so efficient they would decimate the runs. Snagging is effective when fish are balled up trying to spawn or in a creek mouth, same thing. A few snaggers wouldn't do much but line the estuary with them and you might have a different outcome. When they make it through the gauntlet of predators, trollers,gill netters, sports fishermen it's time to let them spawn. If you need them for subsistence different story.

birdfeeder11

2012-11-13 03:52:38

good idea on the trebel hook, What size would u recomend. lol!

Abundance

2012-11-13 06:38:55

Ah, man. You ever tried to get a deeply embedded treble hook out of a fish? Go for a hundred times that, and your asking for some real work. Not mention those things fight like a panicked porpoise when they get a hook in their tail. After all, we are in pursuit of greater efficiency here. Why not just set up a trawl or gillnet between your lines? ;)

Kelper

2012-11-13 18:31:18

I honestly could care less if a HT makes a little bit of money snagging. I've never done it, but considering how minimal the catch is, who cares? That's a lot of work,for not many fish. If he can make a buck doing it, why stop him? Trolling for the small HT guys isn't exactly a booming business, with the way things are set up in the industry. Most of the good king fishing that the HT guys can access happens in May/June.. which we are shut out of on the W Coast of POW. July king openers are short, and usually you lose 1/2 of the short fishing time due to foul weather that makes it unsafe for the HT guys access the decent fishing. Not to mention the 50 charter boats you have to dodge to try to troll up a decent days catch of kings. Coho fishing is spotty, and the prices suck. $4+ gas really makes you think twice about untying from the dock and trying new spots. 15k for a new outboard for the troll skiff.. yeah, that's a lot of fish to crank up when you wear your main out. So.. if a guy can make money at snagging, why not let him?

SilverT

2012-11-13 20:11:43

It's entertaining seeing the broad spectrum of thoughts on this issue. I can get behind nearly every position, given the right circumstance, as folks have really done a good job explaining themselves. My main concern about snagging is the impact on missed and ripped open fish. Perhaps it is minimal, but I would think it would diminish their chance of effectively spawning. When I shoot an animal, I want a clean kill for both our sakes. Wounding creatures isn't appealing.

Lane

Abundance

2012-11-14 01:03:19

I'm glad to see a handtrollers perspective on here, Joel. If I saw an HT pulling fish in by the tail in front of my house here, I wouldn't bat an eye. I really doubt that they could catch enough to mean a lot. I have to tell you though, all the problems that you mentioned for HT's are the same for power trollers. I thought that getting a larger boat would make me a better ocean boat, and I fish the glassy inside waters more than ever before. Crowded drags, spotty coho fishing, $4 dollar gas, expensive upkeep, that all sounds familiar. What I'm saying is, I understand completely. If I was handtrolling, and saw a school of big dark chums hugging the beach, I'm pretty sure that I would be checking my tackle box for treble hooks. I don't know if I should, because, as Lane said, the other people have very good reasons why we shouldn't. I think that a fish is actually less likely to die from a hook ripping through it's back or side than it is from ripping loose from the jaw. I'm never going to find out, because, despite the temptations, it would be immensely impractical to snag from a power troller. Especially my awkward beast. It's hard enough to get fish aboard my boat with power gurdies.

Salty

2012-11-14 05:52:36

Two qualifiers here:

1. I proposed prohibiting treble hooks in the hand and power troll fisheries back about 1978 and it passed the Alaska Board of Fisheries and North Pacific Fisheries management council and was in effect for at least one year.

2. I commonly use treble hooks when running bait herring for a variety of reasons these days. ( I did not run bait for salmon from about 1982-2002.

In 1980 there were a bunch of chums in the mouth of Kalinin Bay and the scow operator told me he was having good success snagging them.

He gave me some weighted treble hooks and I cast them with poles and penn reels and actually caught half a dozen or so outside the stream markers.

I was disgusted with myself for even trying it and swore off snagging salmon, in any situation, again. It was a hell of a lot of work, mutilated the salmon, and was not in the definition of a "troll fishery" as I understand it.

This year there was a bunch of chums jumping like mad at the old scow site this September in Kalinin Bay. I did not even think of trying to snag them or troll for them. They were in about 2 fathoms.

Don't ask me to support your snagging.

Abundance

2012-11-14 06:36:59

Thanks for the additional insight. Truthfully, I doubt that any one of us here would ever snag a fish. Whether or not we wanted too, its just not our way. That's one of the fun things about this forum. We get to weigh in some things that really aren't ever going to have in impact on our personal fishery. We get to puzzle out our feelings about a subject, view other peoples input, and come out the other side a bit more educated than before. These winter days, we talk more for entertainment than anything. I've learned a lot from this thread. If I may ask, why did you propose outlawing treble hooks? I'd never heard about that.

Salty

2012-11-15 02:48:39

The Chairman of the Sitka AC at that time, Larry Calvin, proposed it and I co-sponsored it with him because I felt the shaker mortality on treble hooks was unacceptable. After it passed, ATA and ADF&G did a study that showed no difference between baited single hooks and treble hooks on apparent sub-legal mortality. It did show a higher catch rate of legal sized Chinook on baited single hooks versus treble hooks. So, I actually supported repeal of a proposal I had co-sponsored a couple of years previously.

I also authored a barbless hook only proposal for the Alaska Commercial troll fishery. That one did not pass and I bear political scars from that battle to this day.

Just spent two days at the NSRAA Board meeting. Will write up a report and post here and elsewhere. In brief, NSRAA Chinook predictions are about the same, coho will be better, but then 2012 was a coho enhancement disaster for NSRAA, Chum returns will be better. Trollers share of NSRAA Common Property Value fell below 10%. Trollers share of SE Alaska Enhanced fish is about 12% (we are allocated 27-32%). Enhanced salmon value to the Common Property fisheries was a new record of over $65 million, while troll $$ went down in real numbers from 2011. In real dollars the difference between being at 30% of the enhanced salmon value ($19.5 million) and 12% ($7.65 million) is $11.85 million dollars.

I put in my name to be re-elected to the NSRAA Board because we obviously need to continue the struggle to put more SE enhanced salmon into troll harvest. As some of you know I have put forth personally, or in collaboration with others, dozens of proposals over the years to improve troll share. Including some that passed the most recent board of fisheries to improve Alaska Hatchery harvest share. Specifically:

On Chinook a proposal I wrote a number of years ago to add Alaska Hatchery harvest caught in the winter season to the winter season harvest level finally passed due to a great deal of work by Casey Mapes. This will gain us 5-7000 Chinook in April when our Alaska Hatchery Harvest level is high.

On coho, a proposal I worked on with Carl Peterson to allow coho trolling in an area of the Hidden Falls Special Harvest Area during the August coho closure passed the Board of Fisheries.

On Chums I worked with the Chum Trollers Association to develop a plan for a hatchery chum troll fishery in Icy Straits and Northern Chatham that also passed the BOF.

Obviously we have not done enough as the Chair of NSRAA said he hadn't heard any new ideas from trollers to improve their share in the last 6 or 7 years. I asked him which planet he had been on during the last 6 years.

Fired up, ready to go!

khaos

2012-11-15 03:10:54

I have enjoyed the commentary on this topic and each perspective has its value, whether or not we all agree on the ethics. My thanks to all who left a post and gave their thoughts. Like Silver T said, I could get behind any argument and cast my vote (except for maybe trolling 1000 treble hooks - the thought of bringing in dozens of flopping chums with huge treble hooks hanging from their sides and bellies makes me a bit ill). My intent was not to scorn anyone who might be snagging salmon with HT licenses, and certainly not to cast an ill cloud on handtrollers in general. I am one myself. I just didn't get how this method could be producing quality Alaskan King Salmon, which is what we all talk about in terms of marketing.

I'm glad to hear this is on a very small scale, and agree that there is probably little harm done, especially if this occurs primarily at Terminal areas.

Snagging Chums in front of hatcheries? I say go for it. As Salty said, it is very hard work, and you would need sturgeon tackle to handle those monsters you guys were showing in the picture gallery. No way you could fill the boat doing that, but it might help the frustration when the chums won't bite.

Abundance

2012-11-15 03:21:40

This thread has certainly been interesting. Thanks for giving us some hope, Eric. It will be nice to see if these proposals have a positive impact this coming year. This past season sucked for hatchery fish, which is why I feel a little more lenient on the snaggers than I probably would have before. Limiting bycatch mortality is as good a motive for a proposal as there can be. I I can ask something more, I wonder if the West Coast trollers can tell us what their feelings are on barbed vs. barbless. I heard they have to use barbless down there. While I would love to have a way to minimize Chinook bycatch mortality during the summer, I would hate to have more of them spit the hook than do already.

khaos

2012-11-15 03:27:55

My thanks to Eric for all his contributions and efforts into developing our fisheries. I don't know where we would be right now, if not for his time and success in improving our management.

Interesting about the treble hook restriction. Makes sense to me, I'm not a fan of maiming shakers with trebles.

Please don't try the barbless hook one again, though........

Salty

2012-11-15 23:03:26

I will not propose barbless hooks for the whole SE Troll fishery ever again :!:

Hotspott

2012-11-16 11:08:17

Barbless hooks? Not a problem....we have used them in BC since....I can't even remember when this reg came in. However, surprisingly I don't believe you will notice a difference in your catch rate.....and the ones that do go back, either voluntarily because they are too small, or involuntarily because they shake the hook, are much more likely to survive. I'd say that is a pretty good tradeoff. I am sure some other BC trollers can attest to this.

Salty

2012-11-17 01:53:30

Barblesss would be a lot less onerous than some other restrictions was my thinking. I used barbless for years when we had high volume pink and chum fishing to save our hands and arms. Now we have different hooks,with barbs, and a different system for removing hooks, thanks to my boys, so barbed or barbless doesnt really matter.

Drew

2012-11-17 03:01:40

and a different system for removing hooks, thanks to my boys, so barbed or barbless doesnt really matter.

That reminds me... Would you mind starting a thread on chum trolling ergonomics sometime Salty? I heard you on the VHF talking about a dehooker and ergonomics and you described the way that some poor guys do things, which was basically exactly how I did everything.

Abundance

2012-11-17 03:22:57

I know I had one day last year where I caught and my deckhand dressed 650-700 pinks and assorted other salmon. I was sure thinking about barbless hooks. I doubt that I could have caught any more, but it would have saved my wrists a lot of misery. That extra jerking motion really adds up over a day. I've been thinking about giving them a try, particularly if I go humpy fishing again. I don't even think that there is a place in the state to get them.

Salty

2012-11-17 08:32:14

I have ordered barbless hooks from mustad, but we usually just pinched the barbs with pliers.

On the ergonomics I have to defer to my son, Karl, who has designed and created most of the ergonomic systems on my boat.

Most of you who have fished around us notice that we have "gear setters" that Karl invented. I have noticed them sprouting like mushrooms on the back of trollers. They save us from having to set every hook by hand.

It seems like every year the system evolves a bit toward more ergonomic. Years ago I was suffering from some back pain and I had an occupational therapist come down to the boat and evaluate my work station in the cockpit. She recommended raising my cleaning station so that I did not have to bend over at all to clean the fish among other things. That simple recommendation really helped.

I used to haul my stabalizers by just hauling up the pole. If they got a bunch of kelp or something on them we threw a grappling hook out and reefed them in. Now I haul them off the gurdy to the cockpit. Much easier and quicker to deal with. Another thing that really helped with the stabies was going to stainless chain instead of cable. The chain is much easier to grab hold of, sheds kelp etc. better than cable, looks better, doesn't corrode in the sleeve, easy to attach, easy to pile up, and never pricks you with a broken strand.

Start a thread on ergonomics for trolling and I will chime in.

khaos

2012-11-17 23:28:42

Do you still have to dress your pinks, Garrett? Are they not buying round pinks in Craig? Heard Ketchikan had a flood of them this year, but I didn't think the numbers up this way were anything special. Price is getting better though!

Abundance

2012-11-18 00:07:16

There are no round buyers on western PoW. We talked to the local seine buyer, but they weren't willing to take pinks in as small of quantities that we could offer. It got the deckhand trained in fish cleaning mighty quick though! I only fished pinks that one day really. That was in the end of July, out in front of Craig. They were the tiniest little pinks you ever saw, and just didn't add up quick enough to make that worthwhile. I've heard some absolute jaw dropping stories from Clarence though. Suffice to say, my twenty+ pinks to a line would be the least of it. My Dad fished the open ocean a bit after that, and had nearly two hundred pinks in two pulls. Then at least a hundred seiners moved in and wiped them out, almost to a fish. I even heard a few of them complaining on the radio, worried where the fishery was going with people just annihilating them like that. Those guys are beginning to worry me. Snagging seems downright kindly compared to that. The price was good though, almost what it was thirty years ago!

Salty

2012-11-18 00:19:47

We pioneered the Round troll fishery for pinks in about 1989. Cleaning pinks is not the way to go. I am not sure trolling pinks is very smart. But, with a good ergonomic system and two wrestling champs pulling gear it worked for us for a while.

itchyscratchy

2012-11-18 00:59:41

I agree, snagging is so...so barbaric!

DuPont spinners work much better.

FV_Wild_Card

2012-11-19 15:11:26

Then at least a hundred seiners moved in and wiped them out, almost to a fish. I even heard a few of them complaining on the radio, worried where the fishery was going with people just annihilating them like that. Those guys are beginning to worry me.

54 million pink return for 2013. don't worry your pretty little head

as for the snagging.... seriously.... I'd rather those permits be out of circulation doing that instead of getting in my way