I don't like it - Forums Archive

Once and Future

2012-05-02 03:51:04

I went to curl up with the latest copy of Pacific Fishing last night and instead of quality time, I got a restless night out of it. I am talking about the article which seems to be promoting electronic surveillance of fishermen on boats that are too small for an observer.

This is the second time I've seen such an article, written by people in the fishing industry, that promotes surveillance on private property with no concerns about privacy invasion. (Laine Welch wrote the other, I think in ADN.)

I was first exposed to this concept when I bought my boat in Canada and asked what the weld marks were in the hatch cover. They were so the camera could record the size of every halibut that came over the rail. If any irregularities are reported by anyone, the fisherman then has to pay so much an hour to have law enforcement review his recordings. I was shocked. The Canadians submitted to this, but they also submit to mandatory road blocks that check all vehicles for seat belt use and intoxicated drivers. And ultimately, video cameras have not saved the Canadian small boat fishery, but seem to be just another one of the affronts that put them out of business.

I am especially concerned by this because our industry writers seem to be getting behind the idea instead of sounding a note of caution, or better yet, outrage! There doesn't seem to be a push to put these on trollers for now, but I can honestly say, fellows, that if it gets to the point where I have to fish under the watchful eye of a camera, I will hang it up, because the essence of fishing will have been lost. To me "Live Free or Die" means if my spirit is broken, there is no point in living.

On a related note, I saw that the Supreme Court ruled law enforcement agencies can no longer plant GPS tracking devices on motor vehicles including boats without a search warrant because they are (obviously) trespassing on private property to do so. I almost posted then, but did not because no one seems to be as concerned about these privacy issues as I do.

lone eagle

2012-05-02 04:55:38

But on the other side of the coin...my dock neighbor fishes blackcod on a 33' salmon boat. He has an observer for the next month and isn't thrilled about that.

This guy seems to be there to get fisheries data more than enforcement....they should get their own boat and do it on their own time? ....but he already has vms on his boat , just to keep him beyond 100fathoms? I don't like this tech unless there's a need, we're being treated like truck drivers and lives are not at stake

carojae

2012-05-02 07:31:43

Pending doom everywhere - at least it seems that way.

Canada has a way of making me feel violated about everytime them vs us is brought up. Funny we never talk about a fence or border patrol as much as we do about Mexico, "eh"?

$0.02

Jim

Salty

2012-05-02 15:25:15

A Canadian, one of the finest person's I know just left my house. Canadians, particularly Canadians of Japanese and Finnish ancestry, have done wonders for the troll industry. In our family we take the Canadian ideas, tweak them with some American ingenuity, and you really have something.

Clinkerboy

2012-05-02 16:04:55

Kiitos Salty.

Abundance

2012-05-02 17:47:00

I am unsure of what my position on this is. I don't think that this is necessary for trollers at all, since whatever areas we skirt and sizes we stretch have a minimal effect one the overall picture, but who among us would like to see trawlers loose their observers, both electronic and human? As it is, I would actually like to see something like this for shrimping. Obeying the pot shrimping laws is extremely easy, so making an accidental mistake is unlikely. The abuses that I have seen some truly unconscionable people commit in the shrimp fishery are sickening. I would gladly accept some form of of electronic surveillance as a deterrant. I've seen dive boats pull some real outlaw stunts too, but at least there is some old fashioned boots on the ground enforcement in their fishery. I understand the desire for privacy, but we are in the business of killing wild animals for the publics consumption. I really have nothing to be less than proud of in my fishery, but having something extra to keep the renegades in check might be for our benefit.

Once and Future

2012-05-02 23:17:17

I don't like drunk drivers, and I am not one myself. But that doesn't mean I think all cars should have a dash cam mounted and pointed at the driver to monitor his sobriety. The fact that we drive on public roads doesn't change that for me.

China says to its people: "Since you have nothing to hide, you shouldn't mind us checking up on you." Well I do mind. And I'm sure the Chinese are fine people. But I'm not sure what that has to do with the discussion of why they should be under surveillance.

The cameras and computers are getting smaller. It is going to lead to full time monitoring while we are driving. And in the wheelhouse. And in the bilge. And at the sewage Y-valve. But, nobody has anything to hide, right?

Well OK, if you folks disagree with me, that is your right. Since many of you can get behind this I will adjust to that and move on accordingly. I am a bit shocked on what a low premium you put on liberty, though.

islands50

2012-05-02 23:22:05

Take a look at the indstury on an over all view, not just trollers, but the big picture, for the last couple of decades, we have had big brother, both state and federal, add more regulations, and expences to every indstury. I am not saying that all are detremental, yet a large presentage of them make no sense at all.

We have the War on drugs, and yes it is a huge problem, and I am not suggesting that I partake in the use of them, but in some areas of the lower 48, where the states them selves have, been helping the Fed, enforce both state and federal statutes, it has become a gustappo state, for example: I can think of at least 5 states that if you have over $1,000 in cash and get pulled over for any reason, and searched, kiss that money gone.......... in the eyes of some local law enforcment you have to be involved in drugs! Some one mentioned trucking and the regulations, I think they were refering to the hours of service, there again this was pushed, not so much by the idea of saftey but more by the BIG corprate people trying to control everything. it is rather funny on how money in the right hands makes things happen.

We in the marine indstury, have just been put into a new area also, we have the EPA, telling us we have to use certified engines when we up-grade and or build a new vessel, we have congress in their wisdom ?? in the 2011 approations for the miltary spending in 2012, tell us if we build a new commerical vessel, if under 49'11'' over all lenth, it has to be built you Yacht specifations, or if it is 50' or over it has to be in Class....

In the farming indstury, family farm children can no longer do chores, around the farm, under a certian age, Want to have a vegitable garden at home ?? the FDA says no, it may not meet the indstruy standards, IE corprate control of the food supply.

I offten wonder and also those of that age that can remember, things we did as children, teens and younger adults, about the younger genreations, I am refering to our grand children, what they have to look foward to. If they are so protected from themselves, how, where and when are they going to learn the trades, that make or made is a better statment, this Country what it is today, or was yesterday.

carojae

2012-05-03 03:34:30

Once and future.

I apologize for spouting off on your thread here - my bad. My comment was meant to be a generalization of how "I" feel about some of the things that our and other government enties seem (able) to pull out on us all, not so much a attack on you or Salty's friends.

We (Alaskan fisherman) seem to be the blame for nearly everything it seems when things go awry somewhere else. If its not a judge or Fisheries and Oceans, its our own people raising hell with us; halibut charters or fishing taxi's immediately come to mind. We see reminders of whats put on us in this forum almost daily and so its something I ALSO think about. Your post stirred the pot I suppose.

I guess I just feel frustrated that no matter how many hoops I or we jump through there is still always more to come and our only choice is to accept it.

Salty may have been more concerned with my generalized comment here I am guessing. Sorry about that, I have Canadian friends too and maybe should not have singled them out like I seemed to - but some facts remain.

Your post was a good read btw and I appreciate your take on this.

Jim

spike christopher

2012-05-03 17:21:03

I don’t want to get into a political discussion so I have transferred my response to fishery’s politics.

Abundance

2012-05-03 21:38:52

I really don't want to take the position of devils advocate, since I really don't want a camera on my boat either. I think that this is an issue about how we feel, rather than an issue of how this could change things for us. I also really do not think that this will ever be an issue for trollers. I think that this is an issue about how we feel about the changes in the world around us, rather than an issue of how this could change things for our fishery. As to why I feel somewhat differently about this than others, I think that it comes from never having thought of my fishing as private. I am catching the public's fish, selling them to the public and bound by the the laws of the public. What happens on the back deck is not private. Sure, I feel as violated as anyone else when the Coasties come aboard and check for things in my cabin. Do I have a right to be offended? Not really, but I still am. But when the Troopers come and look at my fishhold, I feel no concern. I guess in my mind, my public and private life separate at my mast. I really appreciate your viewpoint, Once and Future. You have provoked an interesting discussion and made well reasoned posts and I am not far from agreeing with you completely. I stand by closer monitoring for shrimping and trawling though. If a fishery has a significant number of participants that seriously violate the rules, that fishery needs stricter enforcement. Count on me to raise up a ruckus if somebody wants to watch my cabin or car though.

SilverT

2012-05-04 03:03:42

Once and Future, I think most folks are on board with your thoughts on the issue and growing weary of regulation. Abundance, that's an interesting perspective and I hadn't thought of it that way. I doubt it will be an issue for trollers as well, but I do hate the way regulations sneak up and suddenly become law. Without a few folks losing sleep and taking the time to educate people they have a way of doing that, so the topic is appreciated. We should behave as if there is a camera on board. After thinking about it though, I don't want cameras from the standpoint that I make mistakes and I don't want them reviewed. I'm quite relieved when I discover I've made a mistake and no recording exists. The slate gets wiped clean and I get to start over with a little more education and move on. How unpleasant it would be if I discovered I made a mistake, knew it was on a recording and then had months to lay awake and wonder when or if the hammer was coming down. It could be kind of like accidently recording a fishing show over your wedding video :shock: . And then there's the question of how many mistakes I've made that I don't know about. How many mistakes would be discovered when one mistake initiated a full review of the video for the season? On the other hand, mandatory monitoring for repeat offenders might be good from the standpoint that if you're being caught that often they probably aren't mistakes. I do agree with your take on enforcement on fisheries with significant violations of the rules. But, I believe the gross impact of the violations on fisheries have to be considered. That's why monitoring / cameras on trollers probably wouldn't produce much bang for the buck. It's just too selective of a fishery. Loneagle, who pays for the monitor on that guy's boat? The whole Canadian side topic on this thread has me curious what Canadians think of monitoring and cameras, but perhaps their input here is monitored? Salty, you're obviously a good friend. Thanks for the perspectives.

Lane

John Murray

2012-05-04 05:09:45

Man you stuck a gold mine with" I don't like it"

Lane I beleive the camera's and observers are coming for the longliners.Not much talk about the pesky trollers,except for VMS for dinglebar.I beleive this is related to the Arne Fuglvog issue or some other control issue by some "higher power"

Sorry to say the small boat fleet gets caught up in draft of some of these ill thought out stratagies to rationally manage our fisheries.A lot of this is related to the disconnect between people working their boats to make a living and the dude behind the desk,who doesn't pay the same way we do.They don't realize another VMS,observer/camera puts us ever closer to not being able to make a profit and livilhood.

We are not f'd yet if we get off our asses and show some push back.

Oh ,by the way I beleive VMS will make it to the NPFMC agenda this fall.Maybe the pesky troller will need one also, so we don't fish over this line or that one.

Man this stuff burn me up.

Salty

2012-05-04 16:23:17

Good thread, actually we dealt with the possibilities of a full fledged observer program with cameras for the Icy Strait chum troll fishery this year. Fortunately Dale Kelley of ATA and Howard Pendell of our treaty team were on the job and halted it. Not so much because we were worried about by-catch in the chum troll fishery, statistically the cleanest salmon fishery, but because of the precedents for other troll and salmon fisheries and, as has been expressed so well here, the general intrusiveness of a camera on board.

yak2you2

2012-05-04 16:33:20

I think politicians should have to wear trademark patches on their suits, like NASCAR drivers, so we can all see who their sponsors are.

yak2you2

2012-05-04 16:40:08

All I know for sure is, if they stick a camera on my boat, they are NOT going to like what they see. I'm not going to go into the details, suffices to say, "observe this!"

Abundance

2012-05-04 19:59:42

Huh. I am honestly surprised that the issue of observance on trollers was that close to reality. It brings the issue to a bit more urgency. I think that I was clear that I consider this to be unnecessary for trollers. We are among the best fisheries in the world, and have earned a little respect. I am pretty sure that they wanted this for statistical information, rather than law enforcement. It doesn't anger me, as I understand where they are coming from, and might even want the same in their position. I cannot feel as strongly about it as most of you guys, but I agree. I dont want a camera on my troller either. Maybe they could have a bycatch logbook? I would be honest, and they need to know that stuff to effectivly manage.

lone eagle

2012-05-04 20:45:20

VMS doesn't come cheap, the govt reimbursed about $3000 which I believe fully covered cost and installation. That would be a big program to fund for the entire troll fleet, dig deep boys!. We have to fish beyond 100fath for blackcod so if you linger, drift(sleep) in closed waters you will here about it and they will lean on you

Abundance

2012-05-07 21:12:13

Did anybody see this on Pacific Fishings website this morning ~~[url=~~http://www.kfsk.org/2012/05/04/observers-soon-start-work-on-se-gillnet-grounds/][url]http://www.kfsk.org/2012/05/04/observers-soon-start-work-on-se-gillnet-grounds/? When you listen to the whole podcast, it really doesn't sound like a big deal, but it is surprising to see none the less, so soon after this conversation.

Carol W

2012-05-08 02:16:11

It would seem to me that it is a violation of states rights in the fact that the district 6 and district 8 gillnet fishery happen in state waters and are managed by the state. How can the feds be observing a fishery that they have no jurisdiction over.

What really gets me is that just because I have a commercial fishing permit and a fishing vessel that I am a crook and need to be observed. Oh shit my blood pressure gets cooking on this subject.