Let's Build Some Boats!
Pacific R
2012-03-06 08:05:23
OK, I'm one step closer to building a new "kit" boat and have some info to share. There seem to be four viable options out there that may meet my needs. First is the 47' Sunnfjord hull. The mold need to be transported but it seems to be in fair shape and would be ready to use with a little prep work. Next is the 44' C.M "football" hull. The mold would also need to be moved and it needs a fair amount of buffing out and polishing as it has not been used in some time but it still looks good. Third is the 46'
Little Hoquiam. I talked to Howard Moe last week and he also indicated that mold was available and he was going to check and see how much it would take to buff it up again and then get back to me. Finally there is the 46' ? Marshall Cole hull. I'm not all that familiar with it other than I understand it to be a modification of the Little Hoquiam hull. I have not seen it yet but I was told it has been stored inside
and may be in good shape. If anyone can comment on this hull please tell me what you think of it. I'm going to try and take a look at it soon.
The bottom line is that building two or three hulls out of a mold is quite a bit cheaper than just one. The logistics of moving a mold, getting it ready, ordering materials, making arrangements with a builder,
or putting an experienced crew together to build the hull all costs. Materials are also cheaper the larger the order. Not to mention the fact would be kind of nice to communicate with someone else who is fitting out the same boat. I also have a net/work shed where there is available moorage on Thea Foss Waterway in Tacoma. I'd be willing to share the shed with anyone who may be interested in fitting out there.
Anyhow, if anyone is interested in building one of these hulls as a "kit" boat, please email me at schmidtj409@gmail.com and I'll share what I know. Let's build some boats!!!
Thanks,
Jeff
islands50
2012-03-06 09:56:58
Your idea sounds wonderful, but I question why go with fiberglass? Yes it is a strong material when laid up correctly, and has a smooth finish there again if done right. I have thought about all available materials. wood, composite, Ferro-cement, and steel!
I personal am leaning towards steel, and you may ask why. Steel is easy to repair, you can add and or change things quickly, I will agree there are draw backs also, corrosion being the largest one. It is easy to work with, yes plates are heavy, but at the same time, unlike a composite material, if you need to stop a job some where before your finished, you can. (ever try to walk away from a half finished layup) Lets talk about tools required to build the hull and finish it to ready to splash, A welder, cutting touch, grinders, and a lifting device. hammers, saws, and I am sure we could add a few more. On the other hand the other materials also require tools, and the skills to use then correctly.
Let us think about hull designs and entended use, all of the molds mentioned, are for the most part, designed to do one thing, pack as many tons of fish into them as possable, that is why we are talking about building a new boat! all of the other materials, besides steel, require many extras bolted, bonded, or attached items, tanks, engine beds, masts, and of course the list just keeps getting larger, where as in steel these are part of the structure, or can be.
Just a few more thoughts and I will close, power required, as we all know an engine, reduction and propeller choices are some what fixed, and engine has a sweet spot where it uses the least amout of fuel, yet produces it's peak torque, and any fixed pitched prop also has it's sweet spot, so now we need a reduction gear to mate the two componets. Problem is they are at the perfet point at just one speed. has anyone thought about a variable pitch propeller ?
gumpucky
2012-03-06 17:57:44
I've been considering a variable pitch prop. I think it would be great for the chum fishery. You could feather it down to the right speed while maintaining a healthy rpm for your engine and charging system and alleviate one from having to drag drogues. My main concern would be how it would hold up to getting a wire caught in it.
spike christopher
2012-03-06 19:38:09
Are you talking about hydraulic pitch? I spoke with the outfit at the fish expo and when they stated 20 plus thousand for the set up I thought no thanks, is there some cheaper company? I don't remember the name of the company, I believe they were from Norway . It would be a absolute great system if you could afford it.
islands50
2012-03-06 22:29:41
I think it is Klinsine boats, "sp" or another of the one-line designers, but they had a wonderful article on variable pitch props, and yes most of them are in europe, mostly in Viking lands, but we are talking of building a new boat in this thread not re-building an old hull.
There again in my orginal posting, I did say where the engine has it's sweet spot !
We always think that fuel here is expencive, I am saying the US and including HI, and AK, yet in Europe it is 3 times as expencive, and variable pitch props are almost a standard item, must be a good reason to use them.
I also have to agree with the question of getting lines tangled, that can be a problem on any boat, but there are the line cutters that I have seen from time to time, in most boating mags. and are not all that expencive.
I hav ebeen looking at 2 designs from Tad Roberts in Canada, and one from Hartly-Brooks in Aus. the Hartly brooks design is simlaur to what they are now useing in the Irish sea, house well foward and accomaditions in the forpeak, The Tad Roberts designs were orginaly sai assisted, schooner riged. but you could do either a house foward or aft with them, I like the layout of his 36, but enjoy the longer WL of the 43, all three of the boats I mentioned use just over 100 hp engines.
George Buller, out of WA has some great ideas about trolllers also, his Diesel Duck line I think would make a great troller, because of the long W/L to beam ratio, there again we are in the 100 hp area, Maybe I am thinking wrong, but we are talking the lowest operating cost, and yet being sea worthy.
Pacific R
2012-03-07 06:28:56
Some thoughts on the last few posts. Steel boats fish great, are really tough, and easy to modify and repair. However, there more than a few steel boats around that are on their third bottoms. New steel coating systems are better these days but that's what they said too, 10,20,30, and 40 years ago. I would love a new steel boat if I did not want have to maintain it. The same can be said for wood boats. There is no finer boat than a wood boat. I'd love to have wood boat......if I did'nt have to maintain it.
OK, I'll admit it, fiberglass is a compromise in some respects but it's a compromise that works for many. There are a lot of glass boats out there that are nearly 50 years old and other than replacing wood components that were glassed over, they have been trouble free as far as the hulls are concerned. And I do know there were some poorly made glass boats too but they seem to be the rare exception.
On variable pitch props a guy once told me a he bunged up a blade on a yacht and had to wait months for a replacement to be made and sent from England or Sweden or some dang place. That could ruin your season in a hurry!
Sobie2
2012-03-08 19:46:27
Pacific R-
No way in hull would I consider building any of these boats in any material other than fiberglass. All of the boats from these moulds are still fishing today. These boats in 'glass have excellent resale values (compare to wood and steel). Other than regular fiberglass, I'd consider vacuum bagged composite construction, if regular straight glass, I'd still consider vacuum bag building, because we are talking about a lot of resin, and bagging makes a stronger hull.
My question is in addition to the hull are you negitiating on use of cabin/wheel house molds too?
What are the builders looking for to use their molds? Are they looking rent the mold, or sell a hull they pull from the mold?
Have pricing to share? Estimates on glass/resin?
what kind of pricing are you thinking you might be in for this project idea for 2-3 hulls?
Time is money, and there is definately an off season to do your own building as a troller. What does a new Sunnfjord run? Probably 100,000 lbs of Winter kings! Worth it oh yea!
Sobie2
islands50
2012-03-09 13:44:31
Sobie's comments about vaccum bagging are very valid, and I agree with him, the market does seem to be good for composit boats at re-sale, yet are we just looking for re-sale, or are we looking at a tool we use to make a living? He also brought up some other valid points about the use of molds and other componets.
As I think more about this thread, the cost of the hull / superstructure is the least expencive part of the projects. the running gear, fishing equipment, electronics, and other outfitting in my meager experiance, says that is where the major costs are !
another 3 cents on my thought process, have to account for inflaction
Salty
2012-03-09 18:36:37
At a good rate of production 100,000 pounds of winter kings is only about 33 years of trolling.
Pacific R
2012-03-10 08:26:41
Salty,
The going rate for mat, resin, and roving is about $2.00/lb. A hull shell will take about 10-12 barrels of resin @500lbs each and about an equal weight of glass, plus gelcoat, hardener, etc. OK, 25k for materials for just a hull and another 10k labor if I do a lot of the work. 35K is a safe number I think. In the 70's the going rate for a bare hull from Little Hoquiam was 10K and a new turn-key 47' Sunnfjord with a 6-71 was 70K. So I figure a finished boat at that time was about 7X that of just a bare hull. If I use that logic today a new finished boat should cost about 245K. Only, I guess, if labor cost the same today as back then!
So, yea, that's a lot of kings alright, any way you slice it. In my mind the only way a new boat pencils out for me is if I do most of the work myself. I am lucky enough to have the skills, knowledge, and desire to take on such a project. So if not for an old cedar Reinell rental boat from the Pt. Defiance Boathouse I learned to rebuild as a kid, that first "chance" on a seiner out of Gig Harbor, and a severe case of that same disease we all share, this conversation would not be taking place. I guess I'd be looking for the "remote" in the cushions of the couch instead of doing this.
A coupe of weeks ago I talked to Charlie on the Mixie while I was in Port Towndsend. It was so cool to hear his excitement when I told him of my plans to build a new kit boat. He had some really good advice to share, especially after taking on two such projects himself over the years. I guess the other thing that makes this sort of a project appealing is that I already have everything from an engine (JD 6068) to a new grid-cooler, stove, stabies, controls, helms, poles, gurdies, hydraulics, pumps, etc., etc. I guess that what happens when you think you need spares for every damn system on your boat. Just getting all that open space back on the shop floor has got to be worth something!
So now, (thanks a lot Salty) I'm trying to figure out how many chums it would take to build this boat. My 6th grade daughter just figured it would take enough chums to go to the moon and back
two and a half times if placed end to end! She's still working on the Humpy estimate and I'll post that as soon as she gets scientific notation figured out. I'd hate to see her little hand cramp again from trying to write out all those zeros!!!
And as for using vacuum bagging or resin infusion, SCRIMP, or otherwise.....no. I'm not a fan cored hulls of any kind in a fish boat. Coosa board in decks and bulkheads, yes. Nidacore in decks, yes.
Foam core or Nidacore in a house, yes. Have you ever seen a resin infusion lay-up gone bad?
Well, neither have I but if I ever try it it will be on my nanocarbon fiber, epoxy matrix resin, core cell ultra, super high vacuum infusion, autoclave cured, cyanonanoacrylickevlar bonded, tri-hull, hybrid diesel-electric, hydrogen cell boosted, ocean-racing party barge. Besides, it would likely mean I'd have to slush even more humpies to pay for it!!!
islands50
2012-03-10 10:54:23
PacificR I am not sure if your estmates are correct, but they maybe close, give or take 20% of your estmated cost of material, the big factor would be labor, experianced labor at that for the layup. The same goes for the other materials talked about in this thread, Steel is going for about $2.00 a pound, in my area, and scrap is bringing in $100.00 a ton, I would have to get a better estmate from the mills about buying direct and these estmates are just at the retail price. yet anyway you look at it we are talking about 9-15 tons of material for a steel hull ready for outfitting. and I would guess close to the same weight for a wood boat, Glass on the other hand would weigh less. Still it all comes down to hull design, and how much power is required to move it along at hull speed.
We speak of boat lenth, and I have to think we are talking of overall lenth, but what is the waterline lenth and beam ? those two deside how much power is needed. and gallons of fuel per hour.
Over all I would suppose the bottom line, is what is this thing going to cost me over all, and during each trip what can I pack into it, am I going to stay out and fill the hold, or am I going to run in every other day, to unload?
So many questions and so many other thoughts
Salty
2012-03-10 19:59:17
I actually talked to a boat builder at fish expo and we rough penciled out about what it would cost to build my "dream troller" now. When we got over $400,000 I told him to stop. And I was talking under 40 feet.
It looks to me like the sensible thing to do is keep looking for existing vessels and then convert to what you want.
I was diagnosed with environmental sickness in the early 90's after helping clean up etc. when I hired a guy to put in the fiberglass tanks on my boat. To this day I get sick changing oil or doing anything with chemicals. I leave the yard when my boat is being bottom painted. I have to hire out and leave the harbor for any fiberglass work.
As part of my treatment for environmental sickness I contacted others with a similar situation. One guy had built a fiberglass boat in a big shop in his yard. He was much sicker than I ever got.
I know that the safety equipment is much better and people are more careful now but I would never recommend building a fiberglass kit boat to anyone.
On the chums, I would re-check the math. Take the ex-vessel value of the chums, subtract 40% off the top for crew, 10% for fuel, 5% for groceries, 10% for gear, 3% for enhancement tax, 10% for vessel maintenance, 2% for additional insurance, 5% for the interest on the loan to convert to slush tanks, set up the alternators and engines to go 1.5 knots for days, and then figure how many chums it takes to pay for a $300,000 troller.
Oops, I forgot the expense in traps and time and effort removing mice.
I think a more realistic figure is enough chums to go to Mars and back.
mswkickdrum
2012-03-11 03:33:41
There is a short thread on here about a new troller I posted over a year ago. At that time Sunnfjord had just built a new 47 that I took a brief look at.
I was told that was a "dry boat" for about 400K, and he guessed a finished out turn key one would be 500K. A "dry boat" is a finished boat with main, tanks,
operational hardware like steering etc. but no interior. Basically except for working gear like mast, poles, gurdies etc. the boat looked done but when you
looked inside the widows the interior was bare. I don't know how you would ever recoup 500K. I'm thinking if they ever get done putting the trollers over a
barrel in B.C. and do a buy back instead of starving them out, there will be some fiberglass boats on the used market that aren't there now.
MSW
salmon4u
2012-03-11 04:11:42
best of luck, you'd better consider other fisheries along with salmon trolling if you're really serious about building a half million dollar troller now days.
Pacific R
2012-03-11 07:43:00
I have had the same conversation with builders for a complete boat. Do I have 500K to invest in a new boat? Yea, I wish! But it's the same conversation I had with them about replacing bulkheads and putting in slush tanks. They would do it for 60k, I did it myself for 10k and I do know a little about quality glass work. The same story for replacing an engine. 20K for having it done at the yard vs. less than 1k, but that includes a bit of wallowing around in the bilge for a week or two. I just installed a new shaft, stern tube, rudder port, and rebuilt the rudder. Same story. I also rebuilt the cabin, replacing the whole back wall and most of one side. Same story. New glass decks from stern to 4 ft under the cabin sole. Built a mold and did it myself for a fraction. And don't even get me started on 25+k one guy I know paid for new aluminum trolling poles, mast, and stays (and they were for a 30 footer!). I've built two sets myself in the past few years. New UHMW guards installed. Man, I later felt bad for laughing out loud at the estimate for such an easy project. Some of you saw that ended up being my coho closure project.
Two words-- SWEAT EQUITY!!! I work for myself for FREE!!! And to top it off, I find I usually do at least as good or better work than when I have someone else do it. Last week I had a conversation with a very well known boat builder on the WA coast. To quote him on the price of new vessel construction, he stated the price of materials is "NEGLIGABLE" compared to the cost of labor and overhead. The added high cost of taxes, insurance, L&I, unemployment, health benefits, etc. are what drives the prices so high and puts a new boat out of reach for most.
The only major part of building a new boat a guy simply can't do by himself is laminating the hull. This takes a crew of three guys a couple of weeks to finish depending on where you stop. Bulkheads, stringers,and a deck shelf are a good stopping point because all of these components really should be laid up new on green, uncured surfaces for proper primary bonding. The rest can all be done by a single, skilled person in stages. However, it would nice to have the crew back to help with engine installation and alignment. It can be done with the brother-in-law and a case of beer, just don't open the case of beer until you have fished the feeler gauge out of the bilge for the last time and the coupling bolts are torqued! My plan is to finish the boat over the course of a few years.
Don't get me wrong, a project like this is NOT as easy as it may sound to some. If you are not at least semi-proficient at most boat building skills, you ARE better off looking for a used boat to pour your sweat, tears, and enough Chums into to stretch at least part way to Mars.
Abundance
2012-03-12 05:35:01
islands50
2012-03-12 12:49:44
Garret,
I also like the Tad Roberts designs, I have been exchanging some e-mail with him, his hull designs I believe would be easy to power and rather fuel efficent also, the sail plans seem to be simple also.
Another used boat site I have run across is find-a-fishboat, you will have to BING it I use it for different hull designs, it is just too bad we can not use any of the boats because of the JONES act. of course the same goes for several of the Canidan vessels on the market, with the 5 ton limit.