Which Is The Best 42'+ F/G Troller Hull/Mold?
Pacific R
2012-02-10 02:51:12
I know this a bit of a Chevy vs. Ford question but I'm thinking about building a "kit boat" over the next couple of years and would like some opinions on the hull molds that are still out there. So far I'm considering the 44ft C.M."Football" hull, 47' full disp. Sunnfjord, 46' full disp. Little Hoquiam, and even the 42ft Seamaster(Canadian). I know there were some other great molds out there years ago but these are the only ones I'm aware of that are still around. So far I'm leaning toward the Sunnfjord. I already have a JD 6068 for power as well as most the other components to put together a troller. I've done my share of fishing and rebuilding boats so I know what I'm getting into. Currrently I'm fishing a 40ft f/g Goldrup with a DD 6-71.
I know there are a lot of things to consider so please give me your two cents worth!!!
Thanks!
Carol W
2012-02-10 05:03:26
There is one fiberglass boat that I think is the best over all troller and that is the C&M (football boat) everyone who has one is very successful I cannot think of one exception.
Tom
Keep Your Hand on It
Salty
2012-02-10 05:49:15
What about Bruce Gore, on the Triad? He had to give up fishing and go into high end frozen at sea salmon marketing.
I thought the definition of successful trolling was that you just made enough to keep fishing, not so much that you moved up or could afford to retire.
Lots of those guys with C&M hulls have failed that definition.
spike christopher
2012-02-10 20:07:20
My two cent worth is the resale value. To big and the up keep is consuming, to small and the outside fishing is effected. All the boats mentioned are outstanding I don't think you could go wrong with any of them. I personally prefer large boats.
Pacific R
2012-02-11 00:36:25
I had no idea that the right hull could make me a "successful" fisherman. I just knew it, not only am I always dragging the wrong spoon, plug, or hootchie, but I guess I'm using the wrong boat too! Man,
I never thought of using that one as an excuse! I wonder if my wife would buy that one for a reason I need to build a new boat? "Honey, I just can't seem to get the fish to come near that piece-of-junk boat of mine, if I only had a new boat I'd be killing them."
But seriously, Which is the best "sea boat" and what about fuel consumption? If fuel keeps going up
would one have an edge over the other? I have always been impressed with the beating some of the crabbers take in the Winter along the WA and OR coast with Sunnfjords and Little Hoquiams bashing their way out with a load of pots and hauling gear in some really nasty seas.
And what about rolling chocks, I've read some articles questioning the conventional wisdom. I've talked to a few guys that said they would not put them on their boat if they had to do it over again. I've only owned hard-chined boats and the only full-displacement boats without rolling chocks I've worked on were heavy wood and steel limit seiners. I know they slow the "snap" of a rolling boat, but I also know that it is at the expense of fuel economy and speed. We always have our stabies in the water when fishing and when running in bad weather anyway.
Thanks for the "cents" so far.
actionalaska
2012-02-13 20:12:55
I was interested in doing exactly what you are talking about doing a few years back, I spent some considerable time talking on the phone, and speaking to people in person. What I came up with is that the 43, or 44 C&M mold is MIA. Frank White currently of Haines,AK owns the Triad now, which I guess was the plug for the mold?? I don't remember exaclty what I found out, but there seems to be a conflicting timeline about which boat spawned the plug if my memory serves correctly. Kind of irrelevant though because I tracked the mold to an outfit which is now called goldstar marine in port townsend, which now occupies the same bay that C&M used to build the boats out of. No body around there that I talked to knows where the mold is, where it might have gone, or why it disappeared. The 47' sunnfjord mold, and the little hoquiam mold are the same mold. Howard Mo, (who is still alive and building boats at little hoquiam, and is the source of most of my pertinent info) of little hoquiam boats acquired the 47' sunnfjord mold for a few years, and then sunnfjord got the mold back. The differences in these boats are of the thickness of glass in the hull, and house design according to howard. Sunnfjord currently has the mold that produces that boat, I don't believe it is the original one, but they do own the rights to that design, meaning you can't order a hull, or take an existing one, turn it over, pull off a mold and start building boats. So that leaves the C&M molds. I figured that the inability to know how expensive it would be to find the molds, or once you did find out what happened to them if they are in existense, made the project pretty much not worth doing. I determined that the best way to go about a project like this was to "borrow" a C&M for a year, and pull a mold off it. Or buy a wood boat with a similair design under the water, which the C&M"s were designed after the classic tacoma shipyard double ender, and spend a whole bunch of time fairing out that hull, and pull a mold off it.
I hope this helps, Please let us know what you find out.
SilverT
2012-02-13 21:01:41
That's an impressive amount of research. As far as the process of duplicating an existing boat designs, a recent land surveyor's presentation produced an idea of how it might be easily accomplished, but the legality of duplication of any vessel would need some research.
If the wood hull you wanted to duplicate was out of the water a surveyor (land surveyor) could set up a 3D scanner (usually used for topographic surveys) and scan the hull from several locations. The cost of this has come down significantly in the last few years. When the scans are assembled in the office, the 3-dimensional point cloud that is created is basically a measurable "picture" of the boat. From this, plans for a mold could easily be drafted in a computer aided drafting program with a high level of accuracy. A naval architect/surveyor team would probably be the best combo to get this accomplished. Perhaps it is much easier than I assume and the scanner is unnecessary.
The total weight and weight distribution of a wood hull vs. fiberglass hull brings up the question, would a fiberglass hull duplicated from a wood hull produce the same handling characteristics? Back to the naval architect.
Lane
Pacific R
2012-02-15 02:04:18
Actionalaska,
I could lay up a hull on 44' C.M."Football" mold. The hull mold, house mold, rolling chocks, stack, etc. are all there. The mold needs some refinishing to get back up to snuff but it does exist! As for the Sunnfjord mold, I looked at that too. I think here are some significant differenced between the Little Hoquiam mold(s) and the Sunnfjord mold. Little Hoquiam has had several varriations that I am aware of but I know Sunnfjord has been building boats out of their mold since the 70's. If you look at a Sunnfjord you will notice that the stern is raked back more and it has molded in guards. I may be wrong, but I don't think I have ever seen a Little Hoquiam built from that same mold. My understanding is that the two molds are similar but not the same. I was told that the Little Hoquiam has a bit shallower draft than the Sunnfjord but I've never looked at them side by side. Perhaps someone could set us straight here. I know both builders have built many "kit boats" in the past and will take them to any stage you want. Send me a private email if you would like more info.
On another interesting note, Stich and glue guru, Sam Develin, has a some cool drawings of a troller named the Josephene. I think building a one-off stich and glue version of that boat using Coosa Board would be a neat project. I used Coosa Board to build a deck on my boat and it is great stuff. Also, I have also just located a couple of Canadian molds.
Interesting post.
I think you should add one more hull mold to your list. I live in Port Townsend and I noticed the 53'x15' skookum hull mold in outside storage the other day. This is a sailboat hull, which makes it very efficient. I hear that the California guys love these boats for tuna fishing. They usually pack 30 tons of frozen tuna.
47' Sunnfjord vs 46' Hoquiam? The Sunnford mold is a couple of inches wider and has a fuller bow, giving it more volume. Most of the existing Sunnford hulls have the decks higher (less bulwarks) as well which gives them more hold space than the 46' Hoquiams. I think the Sunnfjords ride better than the Hoquiams in a following sea. The 46' Hoquiams have a finer bow. They buck nicer and are more fuel efficient. Howard Moe still has the molds for the house & deck/bulwark parts. The molded bulwarks are nice but I would consider raising the deck. The lower decks are nice for longlining and having kids onboard, but definately reduce the hold & engine room space.
Jonathan
Pacific R
2012-02-16 07:31:02
I did not know the Skookum 53 was still around. I looked at a couple those boats last summer and they are cool and very economical from what I hear. I talked to a guy that had an unfinished 47ft Skookum tuna troller for sale last summer but it was not what I was looking for. If I was a tuna guy that 53 would be the cat's meow!!! (sorry for the play on words any of you tuna trollers out there)
Thanks for the info on the little Hoquiams and Sunnfjords. You confirmed what I have heard about those hulls. I talked to Howard Moe at LH several years ago about building a hull and I think I'll call him again. I also have nothing but good thing to say about Todd at Sunnfjord. He has always been very helpful and informative when I've hauled out there and he has built some beautiful boats. That is also good info on the deck height. If I ever converted to FAS that would be a very important consideration. When was the last time Little Hoquiam built a 46' troller? I saw the last two that Sunnfjord turned out, both the hard chined and full displacement models. I know the hard-chined one is in Sitka but I don't remember where the other one ended up. I would like to talk to whomever has that boat.
It seems like a tough call between those two hulls. I like the working space both have on deck compared to the C.M. hull but I wonder how the C.M. really compares to the other two when it comes to fuel economy. If we end up paying 6 or 7 dollars a gallon for diesel in the future would the C.M. be the better choice? Or, perhaps, could we even afford to untie from the dock.
Mabe hoisting the sails on that 53ft Skookum would be the only way to go. Oh Man!!
Carol W
2012-02-16 15:44:27
So I have a question are you considering building a new boat? The next question would be, if you are would it make more economic sense to build two hulls. I am rapidly approaching a point in my career where I need to move onto another boat and a new one would be the cats meow.
Tom
Keep your hand on it
Pacific R
2012-02-17 02:48:47
Carol W,
Yes, I am considering it. I have talked to Todd at Sunnfjord and Howard at Little Hoquiam. I'm waiting for some final numbers from them. I'm sure that if they had a deal for more than one hull the price would be cheaper. I hope to sit down with Todd next week, so if you (or anyone) is interested in doing a hull too, let me know and I will bring it up. I know set-up and mold prep is a fair expense, so it may shave a significant amount off the price. If you can do basic fiberglass fabrication, install engines ,hydraulic systems, prop shafts, etc. I think doing a kit boat makes good sense, especially if you already have a boat and do the word over a period of time.
On another note, According to Howard Moe, the Little Hoquiam and Sunnfjord molds are, and have always been, two distinct and different molds. According to Howard the 46'L.H. hull is an Ed Monk original design. According to him, the Sunnfjord hull was derived from the 44' Seaworthy C.M. (football) hull. It is simply the same hull with a horseshoe stern added to it and stretched to 47'. The 44' Seathworthy hull is also a Monk design according to Howard. Now what I think would be cool is the 44'
C.M.football boat with a mid-body stretched out to about 48'. Has anyone ever stretched one of the 44 'CA.HM. hulls???
Anyhow, I think with many of the wood boats nearing the 100 year mark and the fact that fiberglass and resin prices are fairly reasonable due to the still weak economy, it may be a good time to build a new boat. In 1978 a new turn-key 47' Sunnfjord troller with a 6-71 was $70,000. Anyone want to sell their 34 year-old 47' Sunnfjord for 70K??? Cash in hand!!!
salmon4u
2012-02-17 04:20:56
fun postings! If I had my choice I'd want a sailboat hull.. because of fuel costs!!!
There's a couple hulls you may have overlooked. The 52 foot Hoquim and the Marshall Cole(modified original Little Hoquim I think) both great boats.
Pacific R
2012-02-17 06:14:11
The Marshall D.Cole hull! The Charity is a Cole boat, I forgot about those. Last I heard the mold was in Rosedale, I talked to the nephew a few years back but I don't have his number anymore. He said he could show me the molds but at the time I was not in the market. I think is close to 50' if I'm not mistaken.
You know, I think it would be really cool if we could start a boat design library section. It would be great to see members post different boats, their hull design, and other info. about manufactures etc. I think we all of fall victim to the temptation to look at a new or unfamiliar bottom!!! My wife already talks about my unhealthy addiction to "Boat Porn". She looked at the history on the computer and she was horrified to find I was looking at sites like GSI, Dock Street,and that exotic foreign stuff on Pacific Boat Brokers. She knows all too well the money a guy can spend on this stuff and the heart-ache it can cause.
Pacific R
2012-02-17 06:14:12
The Marshall D.Cole hull! The Charity is a Cole boat, I forgot about those. Last I heard the mold was in Rosedale, I talked to the nephew a few years back but I don't have his number anymore. He said he could show me the molds but at the time I was not in the market. I think is close to 50' if I'm not mistaken.
You know, I think it would be really cool if we could start a boat design library section. It would be great to see members post different boats, their hull design, and other info. about manufactures etc. I think we all of fall victim to the temptation to look at a new or unfamiliar bottom!!! My wife already talks about my unhealthy addiction to "Boat Porn". She looked at the history on the computer and she was horrified to find I was looking at sites like GSI, Dock Street,and that exotic foreign in Canada. She knows all too well the money a guy can spend on this stuff and the heart-ache it can cause.