Is now a bad time to get into trolling?

Abundance

2011-11-08 03:05:45

I'm just a mid-range earning power troller, but I would say that fifty thousand is in the upper range. Sure, I've known guys to go out and make over a hundred thousand for a brief season, but these are going to be fairy tales for most of us. If you are a beginner, with minimal prior experience, I have a hard time imagining you making over twenty thousand. I personally had been working as a deckhand for eleven years before I went out one my first solo season, and I doubt I made much more than fuel. Not to discourage you, as many of us started out like this, but you had better not have any debts that are going to suck you under. You should probably have some money saved away for a safety net and acquire some experienced friends. I don't know how a guy can make it without some serious advise from our more learned elders. And by the way, the troller income stats are not very reliable, as perhaps half of the boats fish year round, and perhaps a quarter of the fleet are all weather fisherman. I know a large number of "weekend warrior" power trollers, who probably clear only a few thousand a summer. And of course you have some absolute maniacs who fish like its a derby, and they make the lions share of the profits. I suppose what I'm saying is, fifty thousand is perfectly reasonable if you are lucky, and the harder you work the more lucky you will be. If you truly think you can afford it, I'd say it's worth a shot. We all took a risk when we got into this business. Take care.

kalitan97828

2011-11-08 05:00:45

It is always tough to get into a new industry as you have to pay your dues. One criteria I would insist on if I were buying a vessel is that it have an engine that is very fuel efficient. The industry has been changing the last several years with a larger portion of the fleet targeting chums and/or pinks for a least part of the season. I think 50K is the upper end for most trollers. If you invest 100k, plan to make 10% on your investment, and pay yourself say $4000 a month for four months you will eat up that 50K with expenses and maintinence.

yak2you2

2011-11-08 16:18:45

A good idea when buying a boat is to start out fresh on her. What I mean is, go through and run all new wires for lights and electronics, start with dry fuel tanks and rebuild your fuel system, go through your safety equipment, rebuild and rewire your gurdies, etc., etc. You get two things from this. First you eliminate any defects that are likely to take you out when your counting on them the most, and second it will teach you how and where to fix whats wrong when it happens. Being able to make a lot of your own repairs is important, not only for the obvious money savings, but also because a lot of the time there is nobody else to do it but you, so you better know how.

Buy a sample package of gear. That means a little of everything. Fish change their minds regularly about what they want, so you need to be able to also. If you ask around and everybody tells you, "were conking em' on Red flashers and the Purple whatchamacallits, don't run out and buy all Red flashers and purple whatchamacallits, because by the time you get it in the water they may well be on to something else. Have a little of everything, so when they change up, you can too.

Get some spare parts on board, worth it to invest in a few small spare parts, then to be broke down and waiting for them.

Spend as much time working over the oldtimers for info. Good Luck, it's a wonderful way of life, and worth the learning curve.

Hans2

2011-11-08 17:16:37

Just to clarify the discussion - when you say "clear $50K a year", do you mean gross reciepts, gross profit or net profit?

dvharman

2011-11-08 18:26:55

I mean net profits, not to say its all about money but investing 125k to only clear 15 or 20 k is not exactly great. I am just curious if you fish hard all season can enough money be made to support a family. I will always work in the winter but would be nice to make some decent money in the troll season which seems to be about may through september.

Salty

2011-11-08 19:12:12

I have been trolling as a deckhand, kid, and skipper since 1950. I have never been on a troller that has "netted" $50,000. A common statement among experienced trollers is that there is no "net" in trolling. Here is why there is no net in trolling.

1. I have averaged 20-30% of gross in maintenance and improvements to the vessel every year.

2. My gear costs are at least 10% of my gross every year.

3. Fuel costs on my fuel efficient vessel are 5-10% of gross in recent years.

4. Crew is from 20-40% of the gross most trips.

5. Then there is fixed costs like moorage, insurance, electricity, licenses, etc. Say up to 5% depending on the year.

6. Then I pay about 1% - 2% of gross on memberships and subscriptions.

7. I also travel some to fishery meetings like Fish Expo, Board of Fish, etc. Say 2% -4% a year of gross.

8. Then there is groceries, clothes, etc. ( I furnish the groceries for my crew) for up to 3%.

I don't have any boat or permit payments which used to be another 10% of most years gross.

So, you can quickly see that you can figure about 75% of your gross will go right back into your business in expenses, payments, or improvements. So, at this rate to make $50,000 "net" trolling you will need to gross $200,000. If you look at various troll gross figures on line you can quickly see that very few trollers are making $200,000. I have never grossed $200,000 or netted $50,000 in a troll season. I have had multiple seasons where my troll business showed a loss after expenses and depreciation. I always advise my young friends that the only reason to get into trolling is because you can't live without it. The definition of a "highliner" in the SE Alaska troll fleet is one who has a spouse with a job with retirement and health benefits. I am a "highliner".

The predictions for SE pinks and chums in 2012 are way down from 2011. It is no secret that the weather is getting windier almost every season. I used to scratch out expenses because I was one of the few guys fishing round chums and pinks. With the prices skyrocketing for those fish an ever increasing % of the troll fleet is moving into those fisheries which is slicing the pie too small to maintain the scratch I had. Palin appointees gave up 15% of our Chinook quota a couple of years ago and we are getting screwed on the abundance models so I don't see much hope for improvement there. For some reason the coho averaged less than 6 pounds this year and the troll harvest was the lowest, in pounds, in recent history.

So my answer, even though it might depress permit prices and get me into trouble again, is Yes, now is a particularly "bad time" to get into trolling if you are thinking of it in financial terms. One of my "smart" troller friends sold his permit this fall figuring he would buy back in at a reduced price next spring. I had a top notch young troller text me this week that if the BOF meeting went poorly, like them approving the proposal for a full 10 day closure in August, as proposed by SE gillnetters, then he would sell out and change fisheries.

There are few good financial reason to go trolling. If I was thinking about trolling in terms of a business and had a nice retirement package I would sell out and retire right now.

Hans2

2011-11-08 22:09:38

I mean net profits, not to say its all about money but investing 125k to only clear 15 or 20 k is not exactly great.
I was afraid that's what you meant... ;)

Ever the pragmatist, however, Salty comes again with some sage advice! Look at the $125K as a sunk cost, and then you're working a lot of hours for a minimum wage-type of annual income. Without benefits, of course. If you're lucky, the full $125K won't be completely lost due to boat and troll permit pricing depreciation and you may be able to recover a chunk of it later.

Just a thought, but I'd speculate that if a fella was able to clear $50K a year on a troller, the boat and permit prices would reflect that and be much, much higher. Almost to the point that the payments on your boat and permit would get you right back to around $15K-20K a year, which is what it seems most guys who have been bitten by the bug are willing to take as compensation for doing a job that they love.

sven

2011-11-10 05:53:30

Early case of the "winter blues" Salty?

Now is a great time to get into commercial fishing,... even trolling. Fish prices are the highest I've seen (16 yrs). You're producing something valuable (high quality protein) and you're never going to be fired. We may not have money falling out of our pockets like the seiners and longliners, but if you work hard you'll pay expenses and put food on the table. Some years the food is fish and rice, but that's not so bad.

It would be highly unusual for a beginning troller to net 50K. However it's possible later, especially if you have a small, simple, cheap wood boat. Bigger the boat, bigger the expenses.

sven

2011-11-10 06:07:58

OK, so I changed my mind already.

I just read that the Canadian Food Inspection Agency is disregarding reports that wild salmon have tested positive for ISA virus. I can see the political system at work as the farmed fish proponents are squashing any threat to their industry.

Better wait and see how this ISA virus pans out before investing your nest egg in a salmon fishing.

Salty

2011-11-11 04:35:09

Sven,

Yes, I do have the winter blues as the wind has been howling and the few fish, very few, that are biting average about 10 pounds. Your points are well taken, except that the winter king price is down from recent years and coho prices have been stagnant for years.

I was answering the question about whether now was a good time to get into trolling in terms of a financial picture.

There are all kinds good reasons to get into trolling. I have enumerated many, and posted pictures of them throughout this site. Yours are added to my list.

I love my life trolling. But, I don't think now is a good time to go into trolling for "financial" reasons.

Nevertheless I have spent the last two days and will spend tomorrow working at the NSRAA meeting trying to make a better financial future for trollers. It would help if we were managed to catch our share of the SE hatchery allocation.

mbcrozier

2011-11-11 07:01:28

Just a thought, but I'd speculate that if a fella was able to clear $50K a year on a troller, the boat and permit prices would reflect that and be much, much higher.

Thanks for the question dvharman. I'm in a similar boat, except I already bought a handtroll permit. I am committed.

I seem to be hearing from everyone that 50k is definitely on the high end for a power troller. My question is this: I have heard that a commercial fisherman can expect to gross in a year about the current price of a permit. I certainly don't know much about the troll fishery in Southeast, but in Bristol that seems pretty close. Does that seem right? If so, then a power troller could expect to gross around 35k, and a hand troller could expect around 11k?

And I understand that there are many factors involved (like how many fish you can catch), but I am trying to get an idea of the financial side of the business.

I also want to say thanks to all you experienced trollers for sharing your wisdom; I always look forward to checking this forum to see what you guys are talking about.

Salty

2011-11-11 17:56:23

Mb,

I have noticed the correlation in the past to permit prices and reasonable high average gross in a salmon fishery. It has not been true in the troll fishery in my experience. A serious troller fishing most of the time open should gross more than the permit price. The thing to think about in terms of permit price is your annual permit payment. A good power troller with a little luck should have at least one day a season when he/she grosses the permit payment.

As stated many times here, I do not recommend hand trolling with hand gurdies for normal people. ( I am sure there are some WWF and NFL type persons who might do fine.) That is based on 6 years of hand trolling. Hand trolling with rods or downriggers (which is legal in the winter king fishery in SE now) is a lot of fun and can be fairly profitable. There is a community in SE right now where locals are doing pretty well with rods.

Drew

2011-11-11 18:15:07

If so, then a power troller could expect to gross around 35k

You can get the averages for the permits off of the cfec website.

http://www.cfec.state.ak.us/quartile/X_S15B.HTM

lone eagle

2011-11-11 22:04:41

And the average for all permits was $37k which is pretty close to permit price. Oregon permits are selling for $4- $5k

mbcrozier

2011-11-12 00:05:16

Thanks for the link, Drew. I hadn't seen that before.

And Salty, what you said about hand trolling sounds like good advice. If I was smarter, then maybe I'd listen, but I'm young and dumb-- I'm hoping my shoulders and elbows will hold out for a few years, and then hopefully I'll upgrade to hydraulics. I also appreciate what you said about using rods, especially in the winter. Correct me if I'm wrong, but in the summer season a hand troller can't use down riggers, which seems like a big disadvantage. It just seems like you would miss a lot of fish because leads couldn't get your gear deep enough.

Salty

2011-11-12 05:00:06

Hard to troll salmon deep with rods and no downriggers.

But, mooching and working your herring up and down through the water column in the right spit can work.

charger

2011-11-13 02:06:21

Here is an off beat question,; I power troll and the new thing I've heard from code partners, and seen, is large overnight charters are buying up hand troll permits, hence catching all the fish their customers "sport fishermen" want. Who is regulating them? I'm sure fish and game is checking their fish. Is this meeting the intent of why Alaska started a limited entry permit system? Are they paying the 3% restocking fee we all pay, and how do they decide the value of the fish their customers take home? Are they processing U/W, cleaning, freezing. The same questions apply to small block halibut IFQ's. I had planed on expanding into ground fishing and the charter folks have driven the price up to about $32.00 a pound. Whats next, black cod? My intent is not to stir the pot between charter and the commercial fishermen, but get educated. We all are using the resources to feed our familys. If I am way off base? Please clear the air let me know.

dvharman

2011-11-13 05:20:43

I have been in the charter business for nearly 15 years and am absolutely fed up with it. As to the last post about charters buying up hand troll permits is news to me. I might be wrong but in order to let a customer fish with you hand trolling every customer would have to purchase a crew licensr and take a drug test. I know of one lodge that does this outvof pelican but thats it.

SilverT

2011-11-13 06:32:56

Charger,

I only know one large charter fisherman who purchased a hand troll permit a few years ago. I do know how he ran his business. They limited hand trolling to weeks during which they had no paying customers. Once in a while they had guests when they commercialed, but they were friends and family, purchased crew licenses & took no fish home. They were there for the experience and all fish were sold. I believe they did pay the 3%, cleaned and sold their fish in commercial fashion and were regulated by fish & game.

As far as catching all the fish their sport fishermen want, it would seem fairly easy to keep throwing fish on board after reaching a sport limit with sport gear with the idea that one would sell the excess at the dock after one sent the customers home. All I can say is that as often as I've been checked by F&G that would seem to be a sure way to end up with no boat and in jail. He was always telling me about being checked and what a wonderful experience it was. I'm sure someone's cheating somewhere, but sooner or later they will be caught.

Also, I'm not sure if using hand gurdies and commercial troll gear will put more kings in the boat than having several paying customers using cut plugs and light line. I never remember them having trouble getting limits using the sport gear, so they really had no reason to commercial gear when they had paying customers. People who pay $6,000 per person for a week of fishing don't want their family to have to use a gurdy and 100# test to bring in a fish, so I doubt guys are using commercial gear to load up with fish. As far as taking more fish home than their possession limit, I suppose that's possible, but would seem to be something that could be easily checked by F&G at the airport if they suspected foul play, as a couple of kings are only going to weigh so much.

They were charter fishermen because that's what made money, but like dvharman, they were growing weary of the experience and really long to be enjoying the same freedoms trolling offers. They sure perked up during the weeks they were able to hand troll. I know that during those weeks they made a fraction of the money that they made chartering, but to them it was worth it to block out a prime week or two during the season to do what they truly enjoyed.

Regarding the information in this thread about now being a bad time to get into trolling, thanks for all the great information & links. It's been a great read and I wonder what I would have done if I had that knowledge a few years ago. I'd probably have more day job experience, fewer fun stories, and a larger 401k.

Lane

Salty

2011-11-13 08:18:44

Long informative post deleted under the rule of, "if you can't say 'something' nice don't say anything."

oldschoolnewb

2011-11-29 16:25:49

dvharman, you worry too much. If you need more money, just make another pass. Still not enough? Make another pass. Not too complicated, right? Don't get hung up on "the timing". It's never going to be "a good time", and even if the stars were in perfect alignment and someone gave you a boat and permit free and clear, there will ALLWAYS be something trying to stop you from leaving town and going fishing, believe that. If it's something you really want to do, take the plunge and do it.

Salty

2012-10-11 18:48:29

I was just doing a bunch of online end of the season banking to pay for an unexpected exhaust project and remembered this discussion.

I was thinking of some of my partners in the fishery. Some of them are doing wonderfully and really enjoying the fishery. Others are really struggling.

The common denominator among those doing well is that they have other fisheries, other jobs, working partners, etc. to supplement their troll income. And they just love the ocean, the challenge of getting bites.

The guys that don't are almost universally suffering. The challenge for the troll industry with decreased treaty Chinook quotas, relatively stagnant silver prices, and a crowded chum troll fishery reducing the profit and pleasure of that fishery, is to figure out how get the $millions of SE hatchery production already allocated to trollers into our harvest.

Any ideas?

FV_Wild_Card

2012-11-20 12:27:22

figure out how get the $millions of SE hatchery production already allocated to trollers into our harvest.quote]

There's hatchery produced salmon allocated to the troll fleet that we aren't harvesting? How so? Pretty sure I've been hearing about this for years. What's the skinny Salty? New Thread?

FV_Wild_Card

2012-11-20 17:18:58

After doing some research on the hatchery troll figures it seems to me we simply need more gear in the water. 6 lines for hatchery openings. There's my $.02

Abundance

2012-11-20 17:26:04

There was a proposal to fish six lines for hatchery fish. While I would like to give that a try, I can only imagine how "fun" Neets would have been with 400 more lines in the water. I can't see any harm in allowing us to try though.

FV_Wild_Card

2012-11-20 18:41:16

The fleet should be SCREAMING to get that pushed through. We're leaving money on the table out there to the tune of millions. How was the proposal defeated?

Salty

2012-11-20 21:50:35

See my report under Associations in fisheries politics.

Salty

2012-11-20 21:54:43

While I have been, am now, and will continue to fight for trollers getting a better % of our hatchery fish I am totally opposed to 6 lines anywhere in the troll fishery, including in Federal waters west of Spencer (which is also the title of a good book I just started reading, thanks Tele) where it is allowed now.

A lot of trollers don't own three spool gurdies and would immediately be disadvantaged by this proposal. I try to fight for all trollers.

Got to run, more later.

akfisher78

2012-11-21 01:30:49

Salty, is that the only reason you are opposed to 3 spool gurdies?

FV_Wild_Card

2012-11-21 01:32:19

that's the only reason you are opposed, Salty?

Abundance

2012-11-21 02:20:16

I would like to know a little more about your reasoning, Eric. I have a hard time seeing how six line trolling would hurt us as a fishery. As you noted, allowing us to catch our hatchery percentage is a priority. I know that not everybody has three spool gurdies. Not everybody has multiple deckhands either, but its available to you if you think the cost is worth the extra fish you will get. Actually, most power trollers I know use three spools already, they just use one for stabies. I can see that allowing it all the time would create a disparity for kings, what with the fleet wide quota, and open up some conservation issues (justified or not) with wild run cohos, but the proposal that I saw was just for hatchery areas. I'm also for handtrollers running four lines, outside of the winter and summer king season.

Salty

2012-11-21 03:32:31

A little bit of history here:

I was a handtroller from 74 -80. I represented the Sitka handtrollers at the Board of Fisheries when the decision was made to limit handtrollers to two lines and they got to fish whenever and wherever power trollers fished. I did not sign off on that decision, in fact I left the meeting in Anchorage when it was finally settled. Nevertheless it was probably a good decision for the troll industry.

After helping to pioneer the round salmon troll fishery in SE I have thought a lot about how to make the fishery more productive and particularly how to improve our share of SE salmon harvest values. I have heard and considered the idea for more gear, 6 lines, or even an unlimited number of lines. I have actually had ADF&G research and give me an opinion that trollers could not run attractor lines without hooks.

I have run as many as 200 spreads, four lines of 50 spreads, 1 fathom apart. It is my opinion that for a lot of good reasons 6 lines is the wrong direction to go. I will discuss some of those reasons and believe others should not be put in print.

1. My experience is that the way for the troll fleet to catch more hatchery chums is to have more area and time on chums throughout the migration corridors and in terminal areas. I think the example that SSRAA is providing is a good one.

2. Chum trolling is a vastly different fishery than trolling Chinook or coho. Thinking you can catch chums at a high rate by just changing your gear or using 6 lines does not correspond to my experience. I actually use much less gear as my thinking on the best techniques for chum production have evolved. One season, the first season Sarah was my primary crew, we limited ourselves to 11 spreads a line when it was just her and I. I learned more about chum trolling that year than in all the other years combined. (Of course I seem to have forgot all I learned and have to relearn and increasingly seek help from my young partners to get any semblance of production.)

3. I probably shouldn't put this in print but I will. Chums, particularly some stocks, are easily spooked. Too much gear in a small area not only splits the troll harvest pie into smaller slices, it often reduces the total pie, sometimes dramatically. Guys running too much gear, flashers that actually scare fish, huge drag bags that create a lot of disturbance in the water (ever wonder why some of the top chum trollers either don't have drag bags or have one about 200 yards behind their boat?) Another comment about boats spooking chums deleted because it should not be printed.

4. With an increasing chum troll fleet and a desire to get more time in relatively cramped terminal harvest areas we are already looking at crowded conditions in the terminal areas where 6 lines are being proposed. It is my observation that a good % of the fleet has enough problems maneuvering with four lines at 1.5 knots, I can only imagine the mess with 6 lines.

5. Trollers need to figure out ways to harvest a greater share of the hatchery returns. Increasing the number of lines is a good idea to consider. I have considered it, I hope my opinion doesn't discourage other good ideas.

Abundance

2012-11-21 04:57:06

I always appreciate your well reasoned thoughts on a subject, Eric. I'm not sure that six lines would hurt our catch though. It's a fact that I think most all of us know that, except in serious bites, fish prefer lures spread out. But it doesn't seem to make much difference how many lines we have out. By that logic, we should be catching more on two lines than with four. I'm pretty sure that I would catch more with six lines, lures spaced appropriately, than I currently do with four. I do agree though, the best thing would be to open more areas and times to fishing. I would like to see southern Clarence, down toward Cape Chacon and Dixon entrance, open for chums pinks and cohos in June. And I personally don't have any desire to try Neets Bay with six lines. If people were spread out into all of these areas however, I think six lines would be even more effective. Heh, some of the guys might not even need their drag bags to slow down with the extra two lines out.

Salty

2012-11-21 08:01:30

Great thinking Garret. I agree with you on the extra bags and gear slowing you down.

Here are a couple more cons and a couple of pros.

Cons

1. I don't think trollers battling among themselves over the amount of gear we can use in a terminal area helps us focus on getting more worthwhile opportunity.

2. The cost of all that additional gear, flashers snaps wire bugs etc will be steep. A lot of guys still commonly run 30 spreads a line. So, at least 1.5 times the additional flashers = 90 @$10 apiece = $900. Then add in the snaps wires bags bugs etc and you are looking at $2500 or more just for those two extra lines. Then figure the time and expense of tying 180 new bugs and putting them out when you disc