Buy back - Forums Archive

itchyscratchy

2011-02-06 18:29:06

Not sure who to direct these questions too, but here goes;

How many troll permits are there?

How many permits where fished last year?

What was the average permits fished over the last 5 years?

The reason I'm curious has more to do with the Sieners program to buy permits in an effort to reduce the number of permits on the market - thus increasing the value for the permit holders.

Has anyone ever looked into a permit buy back program for Troll permits? if yes, what happened, and if not,why not?

Salty

2011-02-07 01:12:42

A lot of this can be found on the ADF&G troll site: http://www.cf.adfg.state.ak.us/region1/finfish/salmon/troll/trolinfo.php

Personally, because trollers are well below their allocated share of SE enhanced salmon, it does not work well in the political dynamics to be reducing our catching potential. In effect we might lose share to gillnetters or seiners so less trollers would be dividing up a smaller pie. I am in favor of increasing the troll harvest to our allocated share of 27-32% for all trollers. Because of the greater harvest area, longer seasons, and greater differences in catch rate trollers are not as congested as seiners.

I fish in the most congested troll fisheries, the winter surf line in Sitka, and the hatchery Chinook and chum troll fisheries. While I would much rather fish in less congestion I am in favor of as many people getting the opportunity in this great fishery producing the best quality fish in the world as our existing limited entry system allows. I would love to help get troll fisheries going in Western Alaska and Russia.

But then again having the only troll fishery in Alaska here in SE does give us a great exclusive marketing opportunity. Can you imagine the hue and cry if there was a troll fishery out of Kodiak and the Aleutians now and we tried to eliminate it?

Super Cub

2011-02-07 04:41:21

Alaska CFEC has great statistics. Here's a link to some:

http://www.cfec.state.ak.us/fishery_statistics/earnings.htm

DiamondLil

2011-02-07 16:11:58

Also reduced fleet size means fewer votes, less political clout.

Joe

grinder

2011-02-07 20:46:20

I think that our permits should be valid statewide. That would increase the value.

spike christopher

2011-02-08 00:43:57

Some of us older guys remember Clem Tillion beating the drums for the Cooper River gill netter’s, thus Southeastern trollers were not allowed to come any closer to Cordova than Cape Suckling. There is a large run of Alaskan Kings starting north at the Yukon and Kuskokwim rivers and running in to many rivers south through Bristol Bay, Kodiak, Cook Inlet, Prince Williams Sound. That area of the State is so large it would engulf all of the troll fleet. Yet the BOF allows set netters, gill netters, seiners, sports fisherman and substances to fish it. It almost feels unconstitutional, I know, I know, the treaty, can one never change things? You want to increase the value of our permits then allow fishermen to fish in the area they live, There are huge silver runs in the central area, every stream carries them, even more so than S.E. The Bristol Bay alone would hold a huge trolling fleet. Look at all the salmon the dragger’s are killing in the Bering Sea yet we can’t touch them. Seems like our voices are never heard. You take the 2000 permits that now exists and spread them out over the entire state. I believe there would be less pressure on the fish not more. The value of the permits would increase as well as the power of the fisherman would increase as our voice would be state wide. As it stands now the politicians north of Yakutat could care less for S.E. trollers.

Akdream

2011-02-08 05:51:19

After reading the post on buy backs, I can't help to share with everyone what I have heard from a locale law office here in Ketchikan.

I am hearing that the state is looking into turning hand troll permits into Power troll permits, and subsidized the current power trollers in a way that would make it fair to the PT by upgraded the HT. Not sure what it would take to make that happen and didn't here of any.

Anyway this would be a great way to get more product to the dock, more money in the locale economy, and great for our locale tackle shop, also we would have a bigger voice in our fishery, not to mention a lot of fisherman fishing again. From what I am seeing their are a lot of Sr. fishermen around the docks, maybe they might want a Buy Out.

The Intent to transfer list in all fishery are getting longer and longer every year I bought mine from a 67 year young fisherman and I talked to many other like him when I was looking to buy mine.

Please! don't take me wrong, I want to make my mark like the rest of you hard working fishermen have, weather I catch the fish and save the money and buy a Power permit later on that fine my goal is just that, or if the state is looking into making it possible for all to get out and power troll. The question needs to be asked, is this just talk, rumor, on the table or is the state really wanting to bring quality Alaska Salmon to the world.

tight lines

Akdream

salmon4u

2011-02-08 09:19:28

I agree with Spike. It should be criminal to discriminate so blatantly against trollers, while allowing access to all other gear groups throughout Alaska

ata

2011-02-08 22:07:45

Hi All:

There are many issues raised in the posts above and a public discussions board is not best place for me to try to address them. However, I thought I'd tackle a couple of questions.

Has anyone looked at buyback?

Yes. I've worked for ATA more than 20 years and the issue has been seriously hashed over by numerous ATA boards of directors. All of them have come to the same conclusion - that the fleet benefits do not outweigh the cost and risk of buyback.

Be aware that under the limited entry program, if a fleet wants a buyback program, you must first have an optimum numbers study done by CFEC. If the fleet is deemed a candidate for buyback, and buyback is approved and implemented, then each of you who continues to fish will pay 7.5% a year of your troll income, until the buyback program is paid in full. There are roughly 1500 permits that would be eligible for buyback. It's likely the highliners would not be the first to sell.

Is the state looking to convert handtroll licenses to powertroll?

I am not aware of any such effort and am not even sure how that could legally be done. If anyone has more information on this, I'd appreciate a personal message with more details so I can check it out. My best guess = dock rumor.

Obviously these are short answers to tall questions. I'm always happy to discuss the issues with folks and to hear your point of view to pass on to the board, so don't hesitate to write me a personal message or give a call if you have questions or concerns. I'm a one person show these days, and it's a busy time of year, so if you call and miss me leave a best time to call you back - during normal business hours please.

Dale

ATA

salmon4u

2011-02-09 11:52:41

I'm sorry, but I just have to say... I'm losing faith that trollers have any political clout with our government. We're small fish in a big money influenced government who doesn't care about us at all, our needs, our healthcare, our retirement, our living... I've supported ATA, WTA, etc... as much as we'd like to think we can make a difference, it seems hopeless.

Salty

2011-02-09 17:59:01

Hopeless? Think again, trollers are among the most independent and powerful people on earth. Free to roam the ocean, for at least a few weeks every summer, chasing one of the greatest creatures on earth for harvest to eat. Billions of people would love to experience what we live even for a few days. In fact people pay thousands of dollars to charter small vessels to experience just a taste of the way we live.

Go to an ATA meeting sometime and experience working with people like Tony Guggenbickler, Dale Kelley, Ken McGee, Steve Merritt etc. and then tell me you still think our future is hopeless. Sit in on a SSRAA Board meeting and have lunch with Tom Sims, Tom Fisher, Dave Otte, and Chuck Piercy and tell me you are still pessimistic about trolling on the south end of SE. Come to a chum trollers board meeting with the mix of young and experienced guys there and tell me afterwards you are still depressed about the future of trolling.

Now it is true that you can go to some meetings with some aging trollers who are more interested in "Don't change unless it is broken" but that is an increasingly disappearing minority. Because those people who persist in those attitudes are either getting out or adapting. Just in the last year I have heard some of the strongest advocates of the status quo adapting an attitude of adaptation.

Granted, trolling is a tough business, but then most trollers are tough. Think Linda Behnken, Linda Danner, Mo Johnson, and that handtroller you saw last year cranking a 40 pound lead up from 30 fathoms in an open skiff when it was blowing 35.

Think of this, our SE hatcheries are producing over $30,000,000.00 worth of salmon for common property harvest a year. The trollers allocated share is 27-32% or over $9,000,000.00 and we are going to start catching it. I think the Chinook quota will go up this coming year and since the best predictor of coho returns are pink returns and we have a big pink forecast it is likely to be a good coho year. Pacific fishing magazine had a link to an article about how both Alaska salmon runs and markets are looking good in 2012.

Finally, I never ever go into a season wondering whether I will do well. I am always planning to do well, I just wonder what the creative solution for this coming season will be. I already have a pretty good plan for this season, have people working on my boat today making adaptations, have been tying gear for weeks, and am quite confident I will have to modify the plan several times as the season progresses.

Here is a story for you: I just talked to two young guys yesterday who were starting to winter king troll for the first time. Their first ventures were really skimpy so I asked them about their tail leader length for their herring. They had just tied up hundreds of bait hooks at the summer tail leader length. Oops!!! I wouldn't be surprised if they are tying up some new tail leaders today.

Don't think buy back, think buy in!!

spike christopher

2011-02-09 22:41:36

Salty, loved your answer but I didn’t see this discussion as individuals trying to get out but an interest on how to make one’s permit more valuable and the possibility to fish somewhere other than S.E. As for our life style, the trolling industry is without doubt a great life adventure. Like you have said in the past there is nothing better than having your son come into the fishery. I would like my son to follow as well but I don’t see any of the young people being able to get in with out having to work at several jobs in order to make it. A lot of us are retired from past jobs as well as some of our wife’s still work to help us make it. Would I give it up, no way, would I like to have more value, you bet. Would I like my children in it, yes. Will this happen, not likely. All my children made it through collage, it was easier for my son in law to become a doctor than to get loans for a fishing career. Student loans no problem, loans for a permit and boat, no way, I know as he tried. He is now a doctor in Anchorage and works long days, with little time for himself. Now that I think of it kind of sounds like a fisherman.

grinder

2011-02-10 03:07:22

Dale,

Why didn't you address the statewide permit issue? After all doesn't ATA stand for the Alaska Troller's Association. Maybe the name should change so people don't think that we are statewide and get confused.

Katlian

2011-02-10 04:11:09

Luckily the value of the permit does not affect it's ability to catch fish. I think there are a lot more productive things to do with our time than orchestrate a few extra bucks for ourselves when we sell out. A higher permit value only makes it more difficult for people to buy in.

From my experience, the goal of a buyback is to reduce participation because the competition makes the fishery unmanageable or unprofitable for a large number of the permit holders. It seems like there is ample opportunity for making a living if a permit holder is willing to show up and pay attention.

A buyback would accomplish nothing aside from paying off people who are not participating and putting up additional financial barriers to new entrants. I think we can improve our profitability best through efficiency, quality improvements, and capitalizing on the hatchery system we are already taxing ourselves to fund.

grinder

2011-02-10 04:32:07

I don't want a buy-back, I would just like to fish statewide. It would be definitely spread the fleet out and get more permits fishing. It doesn't hurt to talk about it that's what forums are for.

Salty

2011-02-10 05:08:42

Actually I typed a long post yesterday about the history of why our permits are limited to South east of Suckling and why that is not such a bad thing and then I digressed into a very fine story, in my opinion, about how I cooked that winter king I caught last month and how good everything from the skin to the backbone was. I was kind of surprised when I returned to the forum in the evening and found it had got lost in the nethernet.

We are not going to get to statewide troll permits to fish from Dixon Entrance to the Arctic again in my lifetime, and I expect to live another 20 years or so in spite of stage 4 cancer. Actually I would say the odds of me living another 30 or more years, which are quite slim statistically, are quite a bit higher than trollers getting a statewide permit again.

I have thought that perhaps we could get a small experimental troll fishery with a separate permit re-introduced on coho off of Kodiak but that idea does not seem to be gaining any traction.

spike christopher

2011-02-10 05:46:30

coho fishery off of Kodiak is a great idea, what is holding it back?

salmon4u

2011-02-10 10:55:06

Hell freezing over? or rather.. trollers getting fair treatment? just sayin

Salty

2011-02-10 18:30:55

Good point about hell freezing over before trollers get fair treatment in a state where most people think salmon should be harvested in nets or with sport rods. To say nothing of a little jealously that we get to make a living doing what most people do for fun.

In a previous post lost in the nethernet I pointed out that I brought up getting trollers back to West of Suckling at nearly every meeting during the 8 years from 1979-1987 that I was on the AP to the NPFMC. That I learned that there was just no way the political dynamics were likely to realign for us to regain that opportunity. That ATA made a proposal for every Board cycle until just a few years ago to re-open that area to trollers.

In the late 90's I personally came to the conclusion that it was a hopeless cause, that troller energy was better spent elsewhere, like getting our allocated share of SE enhanced salmon, 27-32%. The difference between what we have been getting since 1994, 19%, and our share, 28.8%, amounts to over 30 million dollars and it would take us getting another $3.5 million more a year under current projections of SE enhanced salmon values in the next five years for us to get to 28.8%

Also, as I have previously mentioned, it is a great deal for SE trollers to have exclusive access to producing the best tasting, best quality, ocean brite wild Alaska troll caught salmon. If the commercial salmon fishermen to the west of us want to continue to be locked into producing net quality Alaska salmon with the resulting values then who am I to try and help them.

The price here in Sitka today is $8.75 per lb. and I am going to meet with a local processor right now to discuss marketing.

To know why Kodiak is not proposing and lobbying like mad to bring a troll fishery to that Island you will have to talk to the locals. Have you ever been to Kodiak? I have and it is a bit more comprehensible after those visits.