AMSEA stuff
Once and Future
2011-01-28 15:51:20
I thought we were waiting for final interpretation of the new small boat rules. But everyone seems to consider it a priority to attend classes this winter. So did I miss something? What is the specific requirement guys are trying to meet with this education?
Carol W
2011-01-28 16:27:18
I think we need a detailed assesment of what is needed to comply with safety regs for the upcoming season.
keep your hand on it
Tom
Katlian
2011-01-28 17:34:19
Amsea brought a presentation to the last ALFA meeting in Sitka. I still have the one page handout. It sounds like the rules are all in effect, but the system to implement and enforce them is unclear. In Short,
Only real life rafts will do, no more jim-buoy.
3 mile limit means three miles from shore
AK registered vessels are now under the same rules as USCG documented vessels
Operator safety and drill training is mandatory
Dockside exam is mandatory
Safety logbook is mandatory
A whole pile of rules for people building new vessels.
Amsea in sitka is 907-747-3287
slr
Salty
2011-01-28 17:48:52
When is the effective date?
Salty
2011-01-28 17:49:18
Do these also apply to charter operators?
mydona
2011-01-28 17:49:35
I agree. I've been all over AMSEA's page and find bits of '09information here and '08 info there and updates somewhere and some USCG pages under maintenance Sure would be great if AMSEA had an interactive web page so we could check 36 ft... 2 pob...outside waters...salmon...troll... and all the regs could come up on one page. For example; I was looking for kelly blue book values of a beatter truck the other day and checked, make... model... year... condition...fair and up pops 3 prices. Still trying to get 5-8 people to request classes on P.O.W
AMSEA
2011-01-28 18:44:57
Once and Future
2011-01-29 03:05:02
from the AMSEA link:
"The training must include seamanship, navigation,
stability, fire fighting, damage control, safety and
survival, emergency drills, and more."
Hence my question. The courses AMSEA is offering seem to have pretty narrow themes. So to state my original question more precisely, exactly what do we need by when?
Hi All:
Hopefully AMSEA's overview is helpful. I find it a little chunky still and am working to streamline the information for you. Had hoped the USCG would do it, but I can't find anything that they've done that lays it out in a plain way. I'm still trying to ground-truth the document I'm working on, because I don't want to give you bad info. Apologize for the delay, but most everyone seems confused.
I do not think the USCG is enforcing the new rules yet. If anyone is finding out otherwise, please call me right away!
As for timeline for enforcement...my best read is that it depends on what provisions. For instance, load-line/stability provisions for vessels over 50' will be phased-in and there are different dates depending on the type of vessel. There will be a rulemaking on that, and hopefully we'll get to comment.
Here's a few items in the new rules:
There are new construction and modification standards, which aren't real clear to me yet.
The Boundary Line has been modified to 3 NM, which could bring a jurisdiction battle with the state. At minimum, it means more fishermen come under the safety rules.
Documented and undocumented vessels will be treated the same. This means many more fishermen will now have to carry liferafts. Lifefloats and buoyant apparatus will no longer be allowed as a substitute for a liferaft.
Mandatory docksides every 2 years, operator training every 5 years, onboard logbooks for safety gear maintenance and required drills, and other provisions without dates noted in the law will be required as soon as regulations implementing the new statutes are clarified and put into place. Will that be this year? I hope not - and will argue against - but can't guarantee it won't happen. AMSEA probably can't even get you all trained in time for the rule to be in effect this season.
The advantage of taking the operator training classes right now is that AMSEA has grant money to offer them for free. So, you might want to consider getting it done before the money runs out.
I understand AMSEA will offer training in Craig on May 7th at the Youth Center. You can monitor the class schedule at http://www.amsea.org and I am also trying to post current dates on the ATA calendar at http://www.aktrollers.org
Again, this is all very confusing. But if you get any flack for not having fulfilled the new requirements, or are told you have to do so this season, let me know who you're talking to so I can try to help sort it out!
More soon.
Dale
ATA
Carol W
2011-01-29 05:06:42
Thanks Dale and everybody else, man I can't beleave they are so concerned about my safety on my own boat way out in the ocean all by myself and yet they have drive by shootings in cities.
Oh well
Keep your hand on it
Tom
Super Cub
2011-01-29 06:14:55
I don't know what a "jim-buoy" is, but I spent a lot of money last year on a commercial CG approved 4-man IBA. At the time, I confirmed with the dealer and with the CG that this met the requirement for my 22' boat fishing commercially offshore. Am I screwed? I thought the supplier was giving me a good deal, and I spoke with the guy that runs it about re-packing it each year; did he sell it to me cheap because it will be worthless under the new regs, or can I continue to use it?
Katlian
2011-01-29 06:31:03
Survival Craft
All fishing industry vessels operating beyond 3
nautical miles are required to carry survival craft
that will meet a new performance standard for
primary lifesaving equipment. Title 46 U.S.C.
§4502(b)(2)(B) is amended by deleting the words
“lifeboats or liferafts” and replacing them with “a
survival craft that ensures that no part of an
individual is immersed in water.” This means that
accepted as survival craft on any commercial
fishing vessel operating beyond 3 nautical miles.
46 CFR Part 28 must be amended to reflect this
change. There could be a phase-in period for this
requirement to become effective.
mydona
2011-01-29 20:14:45
The cards currently are valid in perpetuity. ??? and I see on a different page for 5 years. "Course schedule updated daily" no class for Craig as of 1/28/11 10pm. I see they are addressing cell phone use with vessel collisions ( :lol: 2 coasty's) At 8 knots I'm not as worried about the cell user as I am about the single crew on the big bite. And as to the download able summery would that be the 2 page, 5 page news letter, or the 98 page summery? Which I might add, not one is a complete all in one stop.( I feel like the congressman that just got the 11thousand page health bill dropped on his his desk and all I can ask is " where do I sign and do I have to be included?")
Salty
2011-01-29 20:58:07
Think of this:
According to all kinds of reports our scientific knowledge has doubled in the last five years. There is twice as much science to try and understand today as there was in all of human history up until 2005. I know on my little troll vessel I am receiving more than twice as much information input of higher quality than I did just five years ago. When I started trolling I had a CB and a flasher, and neither worked all the time. My parents fished 8 years without a fathometer. The ability to effectively gather, filter, and process information is my most important skill in trolling. Keeping abreast of regulations, whether they be safety, or fishing, is just part of it.
Hi All:
On the liferaft, I suspect that 4 man model mentioned above will be fine, but we'll have to find out for sure. As mentioned in the statute Katlian provided, those fishing closer to shore used to get away with approved 'buoyant apparatus', like Kaino rings (basically a life-ring with a net on it) - now they need a liferaft.
As for a Craig training class, I realize it's not on the AMSEA schedule yet, but I spoke to their staff around 5pm on Friday and they had JUST finalized, so told me and said it was ok to let folks know. So, Craig will have an AMSEA drill training class on May 7th at the Youth Center.
How long a summary? I'd like to be able to line out the high points for you in one page, but am wading through the "98 pp." version and trying to find folks who know - for sure - when you are required to do what. I get lots of 'not sure' comments and qualified guesses. This is yet another hazard of congress acting on safety rules, as opposed to doing it through the normal regulatory process, which we (and USCG staff) at least understand. It's even more complicated, in my mind, because there was already a regulatory process in play and it's not sure how that affects the new statutes we're discussing in this thread. On the ATA webpage you can see our letter responding to the USCG's 2008 draft regulations, which were never finalized. The issues raised in the regulations do not completely align with the legislation, but you can see that there were many similarities.
Dale
ATA
Salty
2011-01-30 00:47:59
So, do I need an approved liferaft to troll beyond three miles tomorrow, next month, in 2011, or in five years. What is the effective date?
Obviously my information processing is overloaded. Mayday, mayday.
I know, it's confusing and we'll continue to try and get solid answers.
As I said above, the liferaft provision is now in law, but exactly when USCG intends to begin enforcing - versus educating the fleet/issuing warnings - is unclear. Given how many vessels around the country will now have to get liferafts, I wonder if there's enough approved rafts with the right specs to fill the demand...remember when EPIRBs were first approved? That was a nightmare.
Remembering the EIPRB experience, I suggest that if you order a liferaft, but don't have it before you go fishing, keep record of your purchase onboard. Just in case.
More as I know it.
Dale
ATA
Super Cub
2011-01-30 04:21:05
Thanks ata. That would be my interpretation as well, but I haven't been able to get a solid answer. The main difference between my IBA and a similar "life raft" is that the IBA isn't covered. These were allowed for small boats by the fishing vessel safety act; I'm hoping they are still approved after this.
salmon4u
2011-01-30 09:50:34
of course their the government .... and their here to help us.. don't you know? I'm about ready to call it quits.. they win... move to France like Johnny Depp.. : )
mydona
2011-01-30 16:46:37
The ability to effectively gather, filter, and process information is my most important skill in trolling. Keeping abreast of regulations, whether they be safety, or fishing, is just part of it.
So Salty who in Sitka did stability and load line test for you when you changed your super structure and added the bait shed? And did they give you a discount for the second one when you added your new bow poles?
Salty
2011-01-30 20:44:34
No stability or load line tests.
Monk designed hulls same as mine have been fished off of SE Alaska for many years including Cape Omaney and Fairweather grounds with wooden bow poles. The aluminum poles are actually quite lite. Lots of hull and keel underwater in this design. The new shelter deck is actually lighter than the old one.
I wondered how the boat would feel with the bow poles. A year after I put them on this is the report. The boat feels more stable, with the bow poles out both running and especially when fishing. Hanging 60 pound cannon balls off the end of the bows significantly slows both the roll and the rise and fall of the bow when fishing. Add fifty pounders to the tips of the mains instead of float bags and that also slows the motion. I almost always fish with the stabilizers out.
Going through all the rigging, replacing nearly all the stays and fastners, refastening worn A frame connections, replacing all the haul up lines, adding stiffeners to the forward aluminum stays, upgrading the haul-up blocks, replacing the bolts at the base of the main poles, and replacing the stabilizer ropes all as part of the bow pole project has significantly improved both the setting and hauling of the poles and the safety of the whole system. I highly recommend such investment.
Super Cub
2011-02-12 04:54:02
On the liferaft, I suspect that 4 man model mentioned above will be fine, but we'll have to find out for sure. As mentioned in the statute Katlian provided, those fishing closer to shore used to get away with approved 'buoyant apparatus', like Kaino rings (basically a life-ring with a net on it) - now they need a liferaft.
Dale
ATA
I just got this update on my IBA question from the USCG (sounds like good news):
This took a bit longer than I expected but here is what the Commercial Fishing Program Manager gave me. I guess it is more news to follow.
Dan
An "inflatable" buoyant apparatus will still be accepted. Rigid buoyant apparatus and rigid life floats will not be accepted.
The survival craft requirement tables in 46 CFR 28.120 will be changed, but I don’t know yet what the table will look like. I am not sure what the distance from shore break points will be for each survival craft type. HQ is working on this and will be discussing the issue and asking for guidance from the Commercial Fishing Vessel Safety Advisory Committee which is meeting the first week in March.
salmon4u
2011-02-12 06:13:11
Maybe the government should use our tax dollars to help us afford healthcare if they care about us so much...instead of being so concerned that we have the correct liferaft! what a joke!
ericv
2011-02-13 06:46:33
Regarding the 3 miles from shore rule for requiring an actual life raft, does anyone out there have knowledge on how these boundaries are drawn or proposed to be drawn? An example being Sitka Sound, I calculated this out today and there are many locations in the central sound that would now require a life raft. How does this pertain to our outer coast that has extensive islands and channels that essentially can stretch a couple of miles from the actual land mass (i.e. Necker Islands area south of Biorka Is.) I may not have this dialed in properly and would appreciate feedback, does anyone know of maps that the Coast Guard has that depict how this 3 mile rule looks in the Sitka area? As it read it, I can no longer troll the winter line in front of Sitka and even a few choice areas south of Vitskari Rocks. Guess that dockside exam I've had over the years that cleared me to 12 miles as a solo fisher is now merely interesting history. Thanks to those of you who have been digging into this and I appreciate any info regarding these questions of mine.
Eric - F/V New Hope - Sitka
rookie
2011-02-14 20:43:07
I made my family take the class here in ket. For a young man just starting it was a good thing it opened there eyes. But you old salts why would i call the uscg when i saw the son fall over board. im not wasting my time when i will be getting his ass back in the boat. But thats just me. craig ket.
mydona
2011-02-15 16:54:40
Hope they told you to do the Johnson (?) turn to retrieve your M O B. The turn where you hard starboard then hard port (if you have port side steering) to get back on your previous track line for a faster recoverage. You can call the USCG while doing this. Keep your other crew members on a full time watch of the MOB and throw everything that floats ie; coolers, gas jugs, extra float bags etc. Did anyone ever figure out an engine kill system for us loners? that was a discussion on this form a year or 2 ago
RUSSELL
2011-02-15 21:21:32
I researched the engine kill mechanism and found one. The basic Idea being you carry a remote either in your pocket or attached to your slicks. if the device gets more than 100 ft away from boat it will kill the engine. Or in case of MOB once the remote is submerged in water with no oxygen it will kill the engine. A splash from a deck hose or rain will not cause the remote to kill the engine. I was told you can order multiply remotes for other crew members. It seems like a great idea and pretty lowtech. I think it was about $499 for reciever and 200 for transmitter from Coast Marine in SF Ca. (415)6731923 ask for George.