Hull vs. line voltage
Fishnpohl
2014-04-22 15:54:43
I'm trying to figure out the hull voltage voodoo. My hull is hotter (.740) than my wires(.630) is this backwards? I ordered a russle VIP box to pull my lines down to .550-.600 ish but with my hull hotter am I missing something?
Taylor
Fishnpohl
Crawfish
2014-04-23 23:36:33
I am by no means a pro on this but here is my data point. I want my natural hull potential higher by approximately 2 to 4 tenths than my natural line voltage. It's what seems to fish on my boat best. We have had some of our best days when messing around with the black box and forgetting to turn it on . You can fine tune your wire voltage by adjusting your lead break away length. If your boat is bonded and your gurdies are isolated your already ahead of the game unless of course you are wired for positive ground. It seems to me hull potential changes as your zinc's eat so you are always aiming at a moving target for differential. A lot of guys put a heavy amount of weight on voltage. Some of the top producers on the west coast I have personally known have bolted the gurdies down directly to the wood deck have absolutely no bonding and catch like there is no tomorrow. Then there are some that worry about ion trailings and do very well too.
Either way follow sound wiring principles and you will be good to go.
Fishnpohl
2014-04-23 23:51:58
Thanks!! I'm isolated at the gurdys, new bonding, plates on hull with zinks. It will drive you loony taking with guys no one has the same ideas. Thanks for the reassurance.
Taylor
curmudgeon
2014-04-24 00:07:22
All this Malcolm Russell voodoo confuses me too. I don't get how ion trail can do much of anything... Maybe for albacore but we don't fish salmon right at the surface an I can't believe the ions from a hull can mix down to much over 5-fathome even in the rips. I'm sure my thinking is probably in error, I sure have a lot to learn, but can somebody please explain?
Fishnpohl
2014-04-24 15:58:45
Anyone want to share there hull and wire numbers? I can't see how haveing a hotter hull is right.... I would love to compare my numbers with other boats.
Taylor
Hotter hull is the norm. For me at least. I'll post some numbers in a few minutes.
*edit
I got .660 for lines dragging 50 fathoms and .780 for my field. The deeper you are dragging the higher your line voltage will be.
Crawfish
2014-04-25 01:48:24
Hull potential will vary as anodes eat and as the salinity of water changes . I have a hull potential range from .850 to .684 depending on both of the prior factors. Albacore is a whole other science with more variables from what I can tell. Natural hull potential difference is more important to me than the line voltage. We are really getting into a realm of fuzzy logic as all boats fish different in different conditions. Some boats fish well on the beach and can't buy a fish in the deep while others do fair but not supreme in both operating conditions. I focus more on clean bonding terminations, shaft brush , anchor winch , metal handrails and such than a particular number. I know it makes a difference and some of the high liners who have crew and a lot of time really try to tune it in. As long as I keep up with the consistent producers I try not to think about it. It gives me brain snakes and even more so when they are not biting for me. :D
Fishnpohl
2014-04-25 02:48:29
Brain snakes thats great. Well I'm going to call it good on my numbers. I was geting sick to my stomach with my numbers. But seems that I'm in the relm. I found broke bonding in shaft ally so hoping that's part of my problem. Most likely it's no fish under my boat not my ion trail hahah
carojae
2014-04-25 06:52:46
A current/electrical field needs two things. Negative and a positive. A anode and a cathode. A steel boat and a stainless steel trolling wire.
When you submerse these two things in salt water, (a electrolyte), you create voltage because one value will find the other and in effect, you have created a battery measured by millivolts - fish like this.
There are other variables: Mass will out do small i.e., a aluminum boat will turn a stainless steel bolt into a nice brown piece of rust when in theory this is not suppose to happen. A stainless steel shackle on your aluminum poles will turn the value of that shackle into a nice piece of brown rust - mass wins. So mass is a consideration when trying to create the perfect field around your boat. So.....
What does this mean? I don't know. haha It used to be that too much zinc on a boat was not good. In fact, if you caught anything, you would have a very angry fish, a tough fish and usually it would get away if it was a big king especially. Now, if you are sitting in a room full of trollers you'd get laughed out of the room because everyone has taken the belief that you need tons of zinc....I don't know. Some of the best trollers of the past have been big old wood boats. Why? I don't know.
Personally, my best boat for trolling was a wooden 34' double ender. It had a Chrysler Crown for power and a "positive ground" electrical system. While I thought at the time I was a god as a fisherman, it was actually the boat, I found out as time went by. And truthfully I don't know if the positive ground had anything to do with it.
So in conclusion, let me say that the mystery of why some boats fish and some don't is still a mystery to me in that I can't tell you why something will work. Everyone has had zinc problems before and that is when we become doubtful of our skills. Me especially when fish won't bite my hook.
I personally think if we can figure out what gold refiners know about refining metal, we'd all be good fisherman. They use this process called, "electrolytic refining" and it involves negative and positive charges submerged in a solution to transfer metal from one spot to the other and it becomes pure gold (if gold was the involved metal), or the purest known to man by man anyhow.
Anyway, this is my useless contribution to something I know a lot about, but can't seem to make it all work. Story of my life.
Crawfish
2014-04-25 14:41:22
The way the potential voltage that our boat's either naturally or artificially induce may have more effect outside of just the electric current field.
The electric field produces a force proportional to the electric charge within the field. Electic force is in the direction of the electric field. Magnetic force is proportional to the electric charge and the speed of the charge. The magnetic force is perpendicular to both magnetic field and direction of motion. A charge sitting still will be affected by an electric field. It will not be affected by a magnetic field. A wire with current flowing through it will not be significantly affected by an electric field. The total charge in the wire is zero: same amount of positive and negative. Since only the negative charge is moving in the wire, it will be very much affected by a magnetic field.
Do magnetic and electric fields interact? YES! They interact according the the principles laid out in Maxwell's equations governing those fields.
So how can we apply this information to our trade? The scientific method could help us.
Define a question
Gather information and resources (observe)
Form an explanatory hypothesis
Test the hypothesis by performing an experiment and collecting data in a reproducible manner
Analyze the data
Interpret the data and draw conclusions that serve as a starting point for new hypothesis.
But it's really hard because on a day to day basis we have similar but never the same testing parameters. What we do have is a moment in time with a given set of results to analyze and general trends to look at. I think controlling stray current and the leak of voltage is paramount to keep the weak hull potential field from collapsing whether it is electric , magnetic or a x - y axis of both.
Speaking of magnetic fields I have heard from multiple people that steel boats built with their keels facing East-West wont fish as well as the North- South built ones. Most ship yards orientate keels north south when laying up the hull. Weird hugh?
So in conclusion my personal opinion is it all boils down to Dark Matter and how you have it stored on your boat.
Just kidding. :D
Scotthmt
2014-04-25 19:11:41
I'm nt sure what help this is but my wires on port side are .1-.2 starboard forward spool is .1-.2 and rear spool is .5 to .69
Once and Future
2014-04-26 02:43:19
In my 20's, I went to trade school to learn the electrical trade. It was a good school that spent quite of bit of time on theory as they wanted us to know the "why" as well as the "how". I consider myself very well versed in electrical terms and theories. But I am not well versed on specific voltages and how they relate to catching fish. My goal here is to de-mystify some of the electrical theories. Everything I will state I can prove. (Unless I make a mistake someone wants to correct.) I will not state anything about what voltage will catch fish because I don’t know for a fact. (I do love it when guys say: “Here is what I found works for me” because that is an honest and helpful answer.) And here is one thing that I have learned: very many people who are electricians and power company lineman are competent at making safe electrical systems, yet are completely baffled by the concepts of “grounding” and “bonding”. They just know what rules to follow to get the job done.
1) Electrical current is the flow of electrons across atoms. This occurs because there is a surplus of electrons someplace that causes an imbalance that nature doesn’t like. If these electrons can find a path of low enough resistance, they will flow to their destination to neutralize the charge and make nature happy, unless something like a generator or battery continues to kick them in the ass and force them to keep moving.
2) If the electrons can’t find a path of low resistance, they stay “static” (not moving). This is what “voltage” is. This is also called “potential” for the obvious reason that this imbalance represents power that can potentially be released. The buildup of electrons which are not permitted to flow is also called a “charge”, which is always measured between two electrical reference points. You can never say something like “There is 12 volts at that point” unless you state what other point you are comparing it to, or it will lead to confusion.
3) If there is a current path between these points, but it is not perfect, some current can flow, but some level of voltage will be maintained, and we will have a functioning “circuit” that we can put to work. If, on the other hand, we make an excellent current path, say out of heavy copper wire, then the electrons will flow and neutralize the charge. This is called “bonding”. That is why we bond components together as our way of eliminating stray voltages.
4) Every time current flows, a magnetic field is created around and along the conductor. It may be very weak if only micro-amps are flowing. Conversely, moving a magnetic field in relation to a conductor will “induce” a voltage on it. Current will be caused to flow if there is a path for it.
5) Chemical energy is another way to produce electricity. This is what a battery is. Placing dissimilar metals in an electrolyte like saltwater creates a battery.
6) As a reference point, the ocean itself is at “earth ground potential”, or what we would call zero volts. Everything that has a different charge than the earth would have a numeric value, and be considered either positive or negative compared to mother earth (including ocean) because that is the largest mass of equal voltage that we have access to.
Once and Future
2014-04-26 13:54:50
Clarifications: When I said a voltage that had no current flow represented "static" electricity, that's true, but it is not exactly the same as the name we give to static electricity we collect from walking across the carpet.
Next, I am pretty sure we want our boat's system ground to be as close to earth ground as we can get it. That is, lowest possible volt difference between them. That would reduce stray voltage around our boat improving fishing, and minimize electrolysis. If somebody's hull or ground system was a little too "hot" they would have a different voltage from their wire to the boat's ground than they would from the wire to the ocean.
Now the goal is to eliminate confusion and sources for error when comparing setups. So I suggest overstating the obvious. That is to say if I am going to tell you what the voltage is on my wire, I would give a plus or minus sign in front of the voltage, and then say what point I measured that voltage in respect to. In other words, I would say where I was holding the other wire lead from the voltmeter. Somebody told me once what the standard reference point for that was, but I forgot.
One example of confusion is when someone writes a statement with the word "lead" in it, and I don't know if they mean their "lead" cannon ball, or the "lead" (pronounced like "leed") wire coming off their voltmeter.
So if you say you have .2 volts on your trolling wire, do you mean you have +.2 volts on your wire compared to your cannon ball? And is your cannon ball in the ocean, or in its holder on the rail? Is the holder isolated from the rail or not? Is it dry or splashed with salt water? If the cannon ball is in the water, is it deep or shallow? Because that would affect its contact with the water. And since stainless wire is not a perfect conductor, you could probably find different voltages on it. For example, if you were measuring your wire voltage compared to your boat ground, I would bet you could measure a different reading where the wire is wrapped on the spool compared to 2" above the ocean.
Finally, I want to talk about the magnetic field of steel boats. In books, they often draw parallel lines around a magnetic object to represent the magnetic field. These are a symbol for something real called magnetic lines of "flux". They taught us if you bring iron close to lines of flux, the lines of flux will bend and concentrate themselves to run through the iron. If you want to make an electromagnet, you run current through a wire. And you coil the wire up because the magnetic field will multiply its strength for each coil you add. Then if you really want to concentrate the magnetic field, you slip an iron bar into the hole in the middle of the coil. And your magnetic field will concentrate at each tip of the iron bar, right? SO, that tells me that a boat with a steel hull will concentrate its magnetic field in the steel hull. That makes me think the magnetic field of a steel boat would stay closer to the hull and be more concentrated. By comparison, it seems that fiberglass or wood boats would have a larger, but sparser magnetic field. So maybe a salmon could swim closer to a steel boat without sensing any magnetism, because it's all being held tightly to the boat?
Just think if you could be in a salmon's body for one day. How obvious everything would become!
Crawfish
2014-04-26 18:06:37
From what I have seen it seems positive ground vessels have less voltage leakage just by nature of design. But hardly any one uses this wiring strategy anymore. It also seems to me the wood boats with the large single side band ground plates seem to fish better .
I just want to know why the guys who throw caution to the wind with loose hot wires in the bilge and line snaps that turn pink because their voltage is so hot can catch as well or better than a guy who has to have everything perfect for his boat to catch anything. It makes me think there may be more to this catching concept than just the potential differential we concentrate on. I think this whole voltage premise was developed by the Canadians with the integration of junk fishing. Maybe they know what's up.
Here is a good one. I know a guy who stripped his bottom paint off in the middle of the season because he was not catching well. He re painted with the "right" kind of bottom paint and smoked them for the rest of the season! I thought he was nuts but it worked. Not sure it had much to do with hull potential but it made me a believer of every thing makes a difference. One of the top producers told me blue colored bottom paint caught better on his boat than red or black. Where does it end?
Ideas?
Once and Future
2014-04-28 21:10:15
I thought it was pretty well established some time ago that negative grounding led to less electrolysis. And the first captain I worked for was also an electrician. Russell black boxes were just coming out, and he was extremely leery of having gone to all the trouble to reduce electrolysis and stray voltage, only to use a black box to deliberately put a voltage on the wires that could lead to who knows what. It seems like when you force a voltage into the system you would pay by experiencing electrolysis somewhere.
I think some guys are successful at having the natural voltage on their wires be "just right" without switching on the black box.
I don't know if many of us rely on a solution like the single side band grounding plate mentioned above. Mostly, it seems we are just bonding keel coolers and all thru hulls together to create a grounding plate. The true grounding plate would appear to be better if the goal was to have 0.0v between the ocean and the boat's grounding system.
I don't remember about anodes and cathodes. That would tell you which direction electrons would be flowing if there were a stray voltage problem. Anyway, it seems there would be two sources of stray voltage on a boat. 1) Leakage from the charging circuit and 2) saltwater coating joints between dissimilar metals. If you ran a negative ground system, with perfect grounding contact to the ocean, then all leakage current coming off the charging circuit would be "positive" to the earth ground of the ocean. If you ran positive ground, the charging current leakage would be negative with respect to the ocean. Electrolysis voltage would be phantoms that I can't predict.
Does anybody know for sure if zincs behaved differently on positive grounded boats than negative grounded? And even old sailing vessels with no electricity had zincs, right?
Crawfish
2014-04-28 21:52:35
"I thought it was pretty well established some time ago that negative grounding led to less electrolysis. " As far as electrolysis is concerned it may be more problematic. I am not sure.
Fishing wise -"Personally, my best boat for trolling was a wooden 34' double ender. It had a Chrysler Crown for power and a "positive ground" electrical system. While I thought at the time I was a god as a fisherman, it was actually the boat, I found out as time went by. And truthfully I don't know if the positive ground had anything to do with it."
I have heard this again and again. Never had a positive ground boat though so only here say.
Could it be plausible there would be less stray current outside the hull as it would be trying to complete the circuit back to the block or engine bed and would be less likely to interfere with line voltage as much since the path to least resistance is inside the hull not outside?
"It seems like when you force a voltage into the system you would pay by experiencing electrolysis somewhere."
I think the zinc's eat harder when you are inducing voltage. As the voltage eats the anodes, does resistance increase without cleaning the zinc or increasing voltage to get the same hull potential?
Is this why some guys I know put aluminum anodes on to keep resistance down for the voltage to eat them?
I wish I new more about this stuff.
Once and Future
2014-09-13 22:18:00
I am unable to be fishing (damn it) and have too much time for the internet. Here is a link to two videos on one page. I only played the bottom one which has the explanations, and two things are pertinent. I never heard before that water is "diemagnetic", and I'm not sure if I spelled it right. Not sure of the different effect as to whether fresh water or salt. Plus the ions in water segment may be relevant.
http://cheezburger.com/64265729
elhewman
2014-12-25 08:45:26
At this point nothing intimidates me more than this voltage talk. All I want to think about is finding salmon, and getting them to bite. I am depressed thinking that you can be fishy person and still not catch well because of the wrong line voltage. Nonetheless, I know its all true. :x
Once and Future
2014-12-28 00:42:14
Elhewman: If you're feeling overwhelmed by voltage issues, I would point out that a lot of guys have done very well without getting to the point of turning a black box on. Three fundamental things that can be addressed: 1) Keep an eye out for obvious signs of leakage current, such as a wire with broken insulation contacting metal or bilge water. 2) Ensure you have a good bonding system between all metal on the boat, with the exception of isolating the gurdies. 3) Have a good strategy on zincs.
I think that some people hope the black box will be a shortcut to laying the foundation I mention above. I think that is asking too much of it.
The guy I bought my boat from was obviously meticulous with his bonding. I see copper jumpers everywhere. He also used more zincs than most people do, like double the amount. He had a reputation as someone who always caught his share of the fish. I am not in that category, but when I get on a bite, my boat does not seem to be a limiting factor. Anyway, he had a black box installed, but when they went to adjust it, they found the boat's "natural" voltage was "perfect". So the black box was turned off when I got it, and I have left it that way.
And this reminds me, I still want to run the voltage test someone on here carefully outlined, turn on the box and see what I learn.
elhewman
2014-12-29 07:12:19
Thank you once and future. I am going to try the keep it simple stupid rule and make sure nothings causing problems in the wiring and zincs ect. Very informative post in which I will re-read plenty.
lone eagle
2014-12-30 22:51:37
Talking about current leakage, I stuck my voltmeter in some damp wood not far from my battery bank. To keep the story short, I found voltage but not from poor wiring but from the batteries themselves. I never thought that voltage would travel across a fairly clean plastic casing let alone in and out of a plastic battery case and beyond. Much cleaning of acid residues got the 8Ds to zero leakage but still working on a pair of "sealed" batteries that actually leak out of a plugged orifice where a charge window is situated. Conumdrum..I caught quite well last year
I've read the series of responses. What I noticed is everyone is looking at the trees without seeing the forest, or even the entire view. First, one needs to know why fish respond to electrical current, second what causes the current, and third how to manage the current.
Number 1: A little anatomy lesson. Fish sense their surroundings and find their food using their senses as we do. But, we think in terms of our natural environment, not the fish. Salmon's primary sense is feel, i.e. the lateral lines down their sides. These touch cells detect vibration and electrical current far better that we do. They smell 100Xs better than we do. And, their eye sight in general is worst than ours. We have 4Xs the number of cones (which see color) than a salmon; however, they have 10X the number of rods (black/white receptors). What that means is salmon don't see color well, but they do see variations in gray tones better than what we can imagine. Also, rods are the primary sensory for spatial acuity. Meaning, salmon have better depth perception which allows them to judge distance; import feature for striking a bait fish or hoochie, but they can't see a long distance very well. They have to be close to their target for sight to help in their survival.
The lateral line sensing touch (vibration) also senses electrical current. Don't think in terms of volts. Think in terms of millivolts (very small voltage). Another anatomy lesson: an electrical discharge is fired between the neuron and muscle to make it contract. As bait fish swim, their collective electrical discharge creates a current (though very small). Predatory fish learn this current is (which they sense in their lateral lines) a possible dinner; which they will divert their direction and investigate.
The point is: Salmon are attracted to a boat with a high "boat potential." They're investigating the possibility that the boat's ionic discharge is a school of bait fish. But, that doesn't mean they will bite. I know I have a school following the boat when the snooter's top leaders are producing. Also know the boat is not dialed in if the floats aren't catching at the same time. The reason salmon (or tuna) are attached to the boat's hull potential (ionic discharge from the dis-similar metals which creates an electrical foot print) is THEY THINK THE BOAT IS A SCHOOL OF BAIT.
Number 2: What causes the boat's current (hull potential)? The primary source of current is the zincs sacrificing to the other metals; i.e. the prop, shaft, through hull fittings, keel cooler(s), etc. Every boat is different. The only thing you need to know is your boat's optimal hull potential. In other words, when the bonding system is clean and water tight, all metals in the water are grounded (including the shaft) what is your hull potential? There are three measurements: at the dock, at the dock with the motor running, and at the dock with the transmission engaged. I won't get into what each measurement means, but I will add that these are base line measurements. They will NOT mimic what you see trolling, but they are indicators of what you should expect. Natural line voltage while trolling will be lower.
Bottom paint: the copper in bottom paint reacts with the zincs adding to the ionic dis-charge. A newly painted bottom will have a higher hull potential than six month later, but by a very small amount (.1-.2 millivolts. Sacrificing of the zincs adds to this decline in hull potential). Know there are big differences between ablative paint and hard fouling paint. I learned this lesson the hard way. You want hard fouling paint with a cuperous oxide content of at least 40%. Also, use the bottom of the can on the back of the boat. The back of the boat has the biggest and last presents in the water. You can never get the copper fully (homogenously) suspended in the paint, it is too heavy and falls out of suspension quickly.
Things that you have to watch is stray current. The first source is typically a bad wire in the bilge (bilge pump). Could be a nav light, radio connection, the list goes on and gives you brain snakes. Start with the obvious and easiest to access (bilge, nav lights for instance) and work towards the least obvious.
Number 3. How to manage the current (hull potential)? A number of things can be done to increase or decrease (manage) hull potential. For example, adding zincs, adding aluminum anodes, adding bonding plates (usually steel but I've seen copper used), adding a K-pact system. My warning is be careful. Wood boats can not have the hull potential of a steel boat unless ample sacrificial metal is added to protect the plank screws. There is a balance that is specific to the boat's below-the-water-line metals, the types of metals and their mass, and the boat's construction (wood, fiberglass, steel, or Al). The target boat potential range at the dock for salmon is .8 to 1.1 millivolts.
There is history to these numbers. Don't jones if you're not in the range. The point is the fish will find you, but they may be attracted to another boat with a higher hull potential. What needs to be certain is all electrical connections are clean and dry. All in-water metals are bonded, typically to the engine because that is the biggest piece of metal on the boat.
Note: I have not address line voltage. That is a subject for another posting. Know this, line voltage and hull potential are different but are inter-related. The proper line voltage will insight the strike from the school following the boat's hull potential. An in-proper line voltage will discourage the strike and loose the school. BRAIN SNAKES!!!???
You have five choices to manage line voltage if you know your boat's hull potential is good. Wait for your line voltage to be attractive, change the black box setting, add or delete line zincs, make certain the leads are pure lead and clean, and/or change the length of the breakaways to the leads.
One other take away is this, we work in an ever changing environment. You have to have base lines so you know how your boat has changed. You have to be willing to make changes. Keep it simple or you'll go crazy. If you don't want to change, be content to be average.
Crawfish
2015-01-05 21:58:42
Once,
I touched the positive side of my multi meter in the wood the batteries were sitting on and grounded the other probe. I got twelve volts! Not sure how many amps?
I was amazed to say the least. Ever put your hand into the bilge to grab something that fell in and get burnt by voltage. If you have you won't forget it. That boat still fished well with all of that going on.
The zinc's ate normally as well. Its always been puzzling. I love fishing because of the constant mystery or maybe it's constant misery?
Salty
2015-01-06 02:21:52
Great post Crawfish. Pretty much sums up all I know plus quite a bit.
Once and Future
2015-01-06 03:44:34
Lulu: Thanks for all that food for thought. In depth analysis! I'm not going to obsess about which part of the bottom paint can goes on the back of my boat though. :) (However, I often store my paint cans upside down just to keep the particulates moving. So I do think about stuff. Way too much, maybe.)
I never would have thought about a school of fish having a collective charge, and similar to a boat. However, I am in doubt about how far a charge or current could be felt in a conductive medium like salt water, even by a sensitive organism. It seems apparent to me that even a faint scent would carry much further than an electrical charge.
I have heard talk of "ion wash" plates that some are attaching to boats. But I just think that could travel very deep in the water. Mind is not totally closed, though.
As it gets complicated, I still the think the medical oath comparison of "do no harm" is apt. Eliminate obvious leakage currents, have good zincs, and you're most of the way there.
Now I'm thinking about how I switched bottom paints, though...
Ha! I just thought of something else! I once put the leads of a 200 mile electrical fencer to in a fresh water irrigation ditch to keep fish away from a pump inlet. (30,000 volts or something.) And there was a school of minnows right there. Instead of swimming away, the school just stayed right by the leads and collectively twitched each time the fencer fired.
Crawfish
2015-01-06 05:44:37
Lulu,
I was actually citing one of your experiences about voltage earlier in a post.
Good to see you here. Keep posting. I want all of your secrets. :)
Nice to see so many interested. Over 20 years of dragging my balls around, I've had similar experiences and had the same questions.
Voltage from the batteries: Depending on the boat's construction and location to the bonding system, current created from the battery may or may not effect the boats potential. A tight wood boat were the bonding system is not near the battery spill conceivably could isolate the charge. I have a steel boat. Any charge (stray current) is going to effect the boat's hull potential. I always have two boxes of baking soda in the engine room. I'd like to make a note about negative grounds. There are so many variables it is impossible to eliminate everything without spending days. Suggestion: Always use a single common ground from the engine when using the volt meter. It eliminates one possible difference in your readings.
The paint is a long story. I got the bottom of the can on the back of the boat idea from a chemist at Pettite. I had ablative paint on the bottom after sanding blasting 10+ years ago. I noticed production was declining a small amount every year to the point that I knew there was a problem. I pulled the boat (which was not fishing average to the rest of the fleet), hard sanded the ablative paint almost to the barrier coat, and painted 3 coats of Trinidad pro. First trip out, first tack!, was for 40 (by myself) and ended the day with 102. (I hadn't had 20 in a day to this point of the season) The fleet found me by mid day and only scratched a few. I was still catching. I was told I was nuts by everyone, including my wife. And honestly, thought I was completely mad and ready to sell the boat. But, after trying everything else (including new leads) this was the last resort and it worked. I'm blasting the hull in 4 weeks and starting over with hard fouling paint.
How far does the hull potential current extend from the boat and how deep does it go? I've had some long conversations on this subject and still can't answer the question with certainty. I know three things: 1.) The kinetic energy from the boat's forward progress will force the field out and away from the boat, similar to the boat's wash. 2.) the prop wash will distribute the ions in a down ward spiral like campfire smoke on a windy day. And 3.) salt water is more electrically conductive that copper. (I'm told, but not sure I believe, the hull potential can extend over 300 feet behind the boat given water temperature and salinity) A deep and wide boat (lets say 7`deep and 15` wide) is going to disperse the current and ions farther and deeper than a boat with a 4` draft and 10`stern. The bigger boat is also going to have more active surface area. I stay away from the slammers so they don't steel my fish.
What I tell people who want to improve their fishing and seem to be sincere is: Don't buy a black box until you've got your boat squared away. The box adds another level of complexity that WILL drive you nuts. If the boat fishes to your satisfaction, don't change anything. The black box only has the potential to improve fishing in a slow or scratch bite. Or, when your exploring unfished water. If it is a full on bite and everyone is catching, the box is not going to improve production. The black box can make a 10 fish day into a 20 fish day. Unfortunately, I have more slow days than 100 fish days.
SilverT
2015-01-07 19:41:28
Lulu,
Thanks for taking the time to be so thorough in your explanation. It's extremely helpful and I'm forwarding a link to this to a friend struggling with the issue.
Lane
Salty
2015-01-08 03:35:00
Then there is the recent science indicating seabirds find their prey fish by smelling their excretement. Wonder if salmon do the same.
Crawfish
2015-01-08 06:56:13
Boy do I have a story for you guys about smelling the fish. But its got to wait until later.
Salmon's sense of smell is single parts per Billion; better than a bloodhound. It's more than reasonable to think fish follow a sent trail; regardless of what it smells like, even dinner. That's why I use gloves with bait. Not to keep the scent off me, but to keep my scent off the bait.
I indicated I would address line voltage separate from hull potential. Here it goes. And trust me, this is the conversation creates the most confusion, differences of opinion, and doubt.
I'll touch on fishing with a black box, with out a black box, and the common denominators. Those common denominators are the gurdies, wire, and leads. The gurdies are made of brass which are roughly 80-90% copper with some zinc or other metal thrown in. The copper is highly electrically active which means it has electrons to sacrifice which creates current. The wire is generally stainless and will accept the electrons passing them down to the lead. Lead is a noble element which means it is real happy all by itself and makes a great ground for the gurdies' copper. You probably starting to think, "Oh!! I have a battery on the back deck and didn't know it." The natural line voltage will depend on how pure the lead is, how long the ganions (breakaways) are, how many splices in the wire, and how clean the gurdies spool is. Ganion length will increase the wire's potential (make it hotter) because the electrical potential has to build up to make the jump to the lead. Rule of thumb is longer in the spring and shorter in the late summer/early fall. Line voltage can be increased by adding brass breakaways at the end of the wire tying the ganions to the breakaways. Line voltage can be decreased by adding line zincs. The zinc is negatively charged accepting the electrons from the gurdies so there are fewer electons jumping to the lead. (less current on the wire)
The number one thing that inhibits the line voltage is scaling. That's the green stuff on your gurdies and the chaulky white stuff that builds up on the lead. Scaling is less electrically conductive. The line voltage will degrade as the scale builds up. Start the season with clean gurdies, new wire, and new leads and the line voltage will not be the same in a month, and certainly not at the end of the season. If you notice a difference in voltage on each wire, it can be traced back to something not being as clean as the other wire(s). Another thing that inhibits current is an old ganion. The ganion will take up salt creating a direct pathway to the leads. (my experience is nylon cord is better than tuna cord, but all need to be changed periodically)
Fishing without a black box: The gurdie base should be non-conductive and isolated from the boat. You want the line voltage to encourage the strike (verses the hull potential to attract the fish). The natural difference between the hull and the wire is going to be around .2 volts. Don't get hung up on a number. There are some many things that can change the ratio on any given day i.e. surface temp, the boats zincs scaling, troll speed, etc. What does need to be noted is what the line voltage is at the dock. And especially when you're fishing well. These are your base lines to make adjustments when your not fishing as well as you know you can. Before we get too far. Line voltage while trolling will be less than at the dock. The reason is the forward progress of the boat creates resistance in the water. The water molecules mechanically knock of some of the electrons as the wire cuts through the water. The mechanical energy is different than the electrical energy which is a chemical reaction. Knowing your boat and what the readings should be helps make decisions on what can be done to improve productivity. No two boats will be the same.
Fishing with a black box:
This gets complicated and I'll try to keep it simple. The box will drive current or take away current as it is dialed. Usually you're taking current out of the wire because (in a perfect world) the line voltage while trolling will be ~.6 volts. What the box is doing is stabilizing the current so it is the same on all wires. It allows for changes in line voltage without hit-and-miss on the other stuff that effect line voltage. BUT, all the common denominators have to be the same and clean. (no variables!!!!) That means the leads should be scrubbed routinely, the ganions replaced, and the spools kept clean. Last year I found the gurdies handles (Hasbro) had worn down (the little ear on the handle that fits into the bullet which engages the spool brake) and made intermittent contact making the wire voltage jump when the brake was engaged or dis-engaged. I replaced the handles and life was good. (By the way, this was no easy fix. It took days to diagnose the problem)
Conclusion: Know your boat. Keep stuff clean. Make small changes. Try to make everything the same. ( A point here about keeping things the same. My belief is fish are wary of things that are different. If two wires have different voltage, they may hit one and not as well on the other for instance. They hit the heavies better than the floats, How many splices are in the float wire(s)?)
Good fishing, may the seas be calm, and be safe.
Kelper
2015-01-09 06:17:03
Thanks for the posts Lulu.
I have something to add to the above statement. I believe salmon travel in schools and are very eager to follow a scent trail. It's the reason you are seeing charter boats now anchoring when mooching herring for salmon, versus drifting for salmon. It's not to save fuel. It's much easier for a school of salmon to follow a scent trail from an anchored vessel back to the source, than for the salmon to home in on a drifting boat. Mooching herring is extremely effective on anchor particularly off the beach a bit, and often you are swarmed with salmon while boats drifting nearby are only catching a few. Cohos can really show up in full force once you get that herring scent in the water and you are stationary for them to home in on.
Crawfish
2015-01-10 02:03:00
And then you have the other side of the story.
The guys who fish old worn out wood boats with no nails left in them, zinc's that are completely missing, no bottom paint left and props that are pink. These are the same guys who bolt their gurdies straight down to the deck,have their davits tied on with seine twine because the bulwarks are rotting off and catch so many fish they have to stay up till 1 AM all the time to belly ice them.
I truly wonder. I truly wonder.
Salty
2015-01-10 05:24:21
I wonder too. But, great posts. lulu. I hadn't thought about the splices.
Once and Future
2015-01-10 19:02:55
I can't handle the truth. :|
Jackson
2015-01-11 04:01:36
Great posts, lulu. Some things to think about.
I understand the responses. I have been on the back deck with my head in my hands pulling my hair trying to figure out what's wrong, thinking "I quit." And, I know boats who catch and wonder why. I know this, when you look at the boats that consistently catch and finish in the top 5% of the fleet every year, you will find most of them are tuning their boats and using a black box. I don't know the number, but from my perspective of the troll fleet fishing my waters, 90% are scrubbing their leads, changing zincs every year, isolating the gurdies, etc. I just can't argue with success.
Salty
2015-01-28 03:17:34
I change the aluminum anodes every 6 months. Replace zincs every year. Scrub them up after 6 months.
Scotthmt
2015-01-28 05:26:55
Great post, I keep reading over and over.
joeman79
2015-01-28 17:43:24
Same here I am trying to absorb all of this. I wish I had the brain capacity to have a 10th of the understanding of this subject as posters!!! Awesome info.
Scotthmt
2015-01-30 06:20:52
With all this information I am attempting to begin bonding and isolating things. What is the proper way to bond the boat? All metals touching saltwater wires together including the fuel tank, and then wired to common ground? Should the engine be wired into the situation as well?
Crawfish
2015-01-30 22:04:31
Mast, fuel tanks, rudder, davits, poles, anchor winch, thru hulls, zinc's , engine.....
Everything except the gurdies. Smash a piece of 3/4 copper tube flat. Run this tube through your bilge and hook all ancillaries to it via heat shrink electrical fittings and stainless bolts.
Salty
2015-01-31 07:01:59
Like Crawfish post
Bonding: Simplest way to bond a boat is to run a section of 3/4" copper pipe through the boat. Flatten the ends and drill #8 or #10 holes to attach the wires with SS sheet metal screws to the things that need to be bonded; like rudder, shaft, fuel tanks, through hull fittings, the shoe, metal poles or mast, etc. Main led goes to the engine because that is the largest piece of metal on the boat. Most import detail is to keep the connections clean and dry. Heat shrink, Sykoflex, grease all work, but make it simple and easy to access so you can trouble shoot fast. Any sign of corrosion needs to be cleaned. Any white precipitate means there is current. You need to find out why and fix it. The green stuff is normal oxidation of the copper, no big deal just keep it cleaned off. Don't !!! use silicon based sealer, it doesn't hold up. A top notch installation would be a 1/0 or 2/0 wire ran through the boat connected to busses for the connections, but it is more expensive. Always use 14 gauge wire. The voltage is small, but you want to maximize the impedance (ability of the current to run uninhibited).
Al anodes: I added Aluminum anodes to the rudder two seasons ago; one 8 pounder on each side. They go fast (steel boat) and I send a diver down about once a month to scrub them. I talked with Malcolm Russell about this in Dec 2014. He told me the Al anodes burn deep into the plate. It's best to replace them several times during the season to keep them as active as possible. I'm adding two more Al anodes to the hull just above the prop this season because when I keep the zincs and Al anodes clean the boat produces better. I can usually tell when I need to send the diver down cause the trip isn't as productive as I thought it should be. Also, I add small zincs to the fins on the floppers. You'll be surprised how fast they go. My belief is they help the snooters catch better (I might be dreaming on this one.)
Thing about Malcolm is he's forgotten more about the boat's electrical field and how to manage it than most of us will ever know. I find it productive to spend an hour (or two) on the phone reviewing my readings and asking a lot of questions. More times than not I get, "Didn't I tell you about that?" The thing is he's always experimenting with the tuna and salmon boats, he has an incredible following, and doesn't know how current you are with changes he has made in his thinking based on productive changes made in the respective fleets. You have to ask questions, lots of them.
Crawfish
2015-02-07 03:31:32
Al anodes: I added Aluminum anodes to the rudder two seasons ago; one 8 pounder on each side. They go fast (steel boat) and I send a diver down about once a month to scrub them. I talked with Malcolm Russell about this in Dec 2014. He told me the Al anodes burn deep into the plate. It's best to replace them several times during the season to keep them as active as possible. I'm adding two more Al anodes to the hull just above the prop this season because when I keep the zincs and Al anodes clean the boat produces better. I can usually tell when I need to send the diver down cause the trip isn't as productive as I thought it should be. Also, I add small zincs to the fins on the floppers. You'll be surprised how fast they go. My belief is they help the snooters catch better (I might be dreaming on this one.)
Thing about Malcolm is he's forgotten more about the boat's electrical field and how to manage it than most of us will ever know. I find it productive to spend an hour (or two) on the phone reviewing my readings and asking a lot of questions. More times than not I get, "Didn't I tell you about that?" The thing is he's always experimenting with the tuna and salmon boats, he has an incredible following, and doesn't know how current you are with changes he has made in his thinking based on productive changes made in the respective fleets. You have to ask questions, lots of them.
What did he mean by "Al anodes burn deep into the plate" ?
Scotthmt
2015-02-08 17:54:21
Lulu, thank you for all the information you've shared here. Answers to some of these questions are like pulling teeth sometimes. I have rebonded my boat and I ran everything to a bus bar, hopefully should make it easier to clear up any future issues.
There are two questions: 1.) Aluminum (Al) anodes burning deep in the plate, and 2.) using a bus bar for the bonding system.
1.) The zincs or Al anodes serve the same basic purpose, in fact the zincs are technically an anode as well. Their purpose is to sacrifice free electrons produced by the galvanic activity created between two dissimilar metals. In other words the electrical potential between two different metals will create a battery like effect. You've heard of not leaving a penny (copper) on an aluminum deck, it will eat a hole in the deck? The anodes are giving up free electrons to the rudder (steel), through hull fittings (usually brass which is ~60% copper), shaft (steel or SS), etc. That is why the zinc diminish over time and need to be replaced. The Al anodes sacrifice much faster than zinc because they have an extra electron to loose (you can take my word for it or look it up on a periodic table or in a chemistry book) What was meant by burning deep is the galvanic activity goes deep into the Al plate (anode) to the point that the participate (white stuff) can not be thoroughly scrubbed off, reactivating the anode. The recommendation is to replace the Al plate instead of trying to reactivate by scrubbing with a SS brush.
2.) There is nothing wrong with using a buss bar. It actually makes it easier to monitor and clean the connections because half of the connections are in one place. One note is use at least 14 guage tin coated marine grade wire. (recommend using a standard color like green so you know which wires do what) The wire runs can sometimes be long and you do not want to restrict the electrical flow (minimize impedance). When I rewired (and the reason for rewiring) I found house grade wire with multiple splices using 16 and 18 guage wire. The battery cables were 10 guage from an auto shop; no wonder stuff wasn't working and the hull potential wasn't where it should have been. Up grading the wire and eliminating the splices (which increases impedance) solved the problem. Remember, there are two reasons for having a good bonding system. 1.) it helps protect your boat (save money spent on repairs). And 2.) it helps your boat realize its optimal hull potential which has a direct impact on the boat's productive (catch fish/make money).
Probably asking why use Al and zinc anodes? Very simply, Zinc are used to protect the boat. The Al anodes increase the hull potential. There are a couple of earlier postings on hull potential and line voltage.
Once and Future
2015-02-09 13:28:27
Lulu: You know way more about making boats more fishy with electricity than I do, and I very much appreciate your detailed lessons. But you have me a bit confused above with your use of the word "impedance".
Impedance "impedes" the flow of electricity, so I guess you mean removing the splices in the wire reduces impedance, correct? (Not trying to be a grammar Nazi, just trying to make a confusing subject less confusing.)
Kelper
2015-02-09 16:18:52
Anybody have any experience dialing in aluminum boats with nylon spood gurdies?
SalmonSeeker
2015-02-09 18:46:07
Lulu, will the addition of aluminum, in addition to your normal complement of zincs anodes, lead to the same result as over zincing the boat; especially the wood hulls?
Impedance: A measurement of the total opposition to current flow. We want to achieve a low impedance for the bonding system and black box (if you use one). We want any current generated at point A gets to point B. Any restriction, like scale build up on the connectors or bad wire, increases impedance thus lowering the amount of voltage conducted. Lowering the impedance is accomplished by keeping the connectors clean and water tight, increasing the gauge of the wire (the more clean wire strands the current has to flow through the freer it will flow), illuminating splices in the wire (most connectors are made of aluminum, aluminum does not conduct as well as copper, therefore creating a restriction of the current. The more splices in a wire run the higher the impedance).
I can't answer the question of adding Al anodes to a wood boat with assurance. My experience is with steel. What little I know is the Al anodes will go fast. The forward motion of the boat while your fishing a season will lower the hull potential and minimize any negative affects on your fasteners. By the end of the season the Al anodes will be used up and should be not a concern. One nagging thought is begin careful the boat is zinced properly. The best answer I have is call Malcolm Russell, he'll know and tell you exactly how to do it. (250) 213-3440. Same with an aluminum boat.
Scotthmt
2015-03-09 02:47:29
My black box arrived yesterday and I installed it today. Since there are no pictures online of what it looks like I figure I'll post one.
Top of the line. I've tried the pulse mode, but didn't see much difference. I think it works better for silvers and pinks who like the line voltage higher than Kings. Neat thing is the digital readout is accurate and you always know what's going on with your gurdies. Don't get too "wigged out" if you have a reading when nothing is in the water, but the gurdies are wet (usually around .150-.200). Usually see this in the morning when the fog as everything wet. That is the dissimilar metal in the gurdies and the water allowing a path for the current. When everything is dry, you should read .000. If everything is dry, the gear is on the deck, and you have a reading you know your isolation has failed. Re-set the bolts after cleaning them and cover the bolt heads with Sika-Flex so water can not migrate into the threads creating an electrical pathway.
If you see your box reading changing while your fishing, look to see if your wire is shorting out around the blocks. I insulates the shackels that secure the blocks to the davits with heat shrink. I have a tee off the davit. I line the outside of the tee with rubber hose. (I found that in a turn the float wire will rub on the tee causing a short in the system.) Fish don't like things to change. 1/4" fuel line hose works great.
Scotthmt
2015-03-09 17:16:52
Sitting on a trailer in my driveway and pretty dry I have a reading of .005 I assume this is normal.
Nothing to worry about. That's 5/1,000's of a volt. Start looking around when your dry and over .100
Salty
2015-03-12 07:46:02
I attach my gurdies to the insulator board with nylon bolts. I attach my blocks to my Davits with nylon bolts and washers. It is amazing how saltwater, metal, and a bit of rust can start compromising your isolation. I also wash my gurdies and mounts with fresh water whenever I unload or tie up in my stall.
Salty, you may do this: I use Sika-Flex on the bolt head.. I cover the entire bolt head and all around the gurdie base, it is not pretty. Sika-Flex holds better than silicon based sealants like 5200. Even at that, I have to watch any salt intrusion over the season. I can generally tell something is going on because the base line voltage creeps up in the morning before I through the gear in the water. And, my hull potential slips a little. It never fails, check all 16 bolts and it is the last one that failed with green stuff all over the bolt threads. Down side is Sika-Flex is tough to work with. Got to cut the stuff off and wire wheel the threads or replace completely.
Check your testing gear. Just hauled out the boat and checked hull potential. Potential was slightly below normal and dropping. BIG problem!! With new zincs and fresh paint, hull potential should be higher than normal and volt meter should go up until it stabilizes; usually takes 5-10 minutes. Checked testing leads and found connections corroded and exposed wire turning green; not good. Replaced with new testing terminals and wire. Guess what?! Hull potential is were is should be and moving up like it suppose to. Check your testing gear including battery in volt meter!!!! Good readings this time of year are your base line for the season, the only way you can trouble shoot problems as the season progresses.
Salty
2015-03-21 16:33:35
Lulu, no problems with the nylon bolts. I used Sika flex whenever I was using stainless bolts. I change my Aluminum anodes every 6 months. But, I fish every month.
Scotthmt
2015-03-21 20:52:07
I just splashed my boat the other day the numbers I got were
In the water engine off battery on .95x
In water engine on .85x
New zincs new bottom paint, rear painted with bottom of the can.
The numbers were climbing slowly on the thousandths, .851, .852, .853 etc etc
I think it's where it should be, I haven't done a in gear number run yet.
I'm told that the target hull potential at the dock is over .800 volts. Looks like you're in the range. One last reading is with the boat in gear at the dock. I loose about .04 volts with this reading. The reason is the prop is pulling water over the hull which causes the electrons freed from the galvanic activity to flow in a more linear direction (i.e. behind the boat) vs at the dock were the electrons are attracted to the zinc, giving the slightly higher reading.
Just checked shaft brush connections. Had to make a new lead cause everything was rushed and dirty. Another project! Check rudder bonding.
Abenal
2016-12-14 02:11:36
Regarding Lulu's posts about bottom paint: I'm getting hauled and sandblasted this winter or early spring. I will use 2 coats of Ameron 235 epoxy for a barrier coat, then apply the antifouling bottom paint over that. The professional painter has in stock bulk Ameron 214 ablative bottom paint with a copper content of 68%. Would this high copper content ablative paint work as well as the Trinidad Pro hard bottom paint Lulu used? I asked the painter about using Trinidad Pro hard bottom paint and he wasn't sure that it would adhere to the epoxy barrier coat. He knows that his Ameron 214 ablative is compatible with and adheres to the Ameron 235 epoxy barrier coat.
My point is: isn't the copper content of the bottom paint what is important here? Or am I missing something about the hard paint versus ablative? Of course this is all from a fishing perspective and how the bottom paint affects the electrical field around the boat.
I'm trying to get in touch with Ameron tech support to find out if the two paints are compatible, they will probably tell me to use their version of bottom paint instead of Pettit Trinidad Pro.
Thanks for any comments or input that you might have.
Anonymous
2019-01-05 17:46:40
Hi, Im a homeowner but I feel like I should be able to figure this out on my own. But I havent so far So I thought Id ask.
I have a Portfolio 600W low voltage transformer with two lines running out of it. All the lights on both lines worked fine for several months. Then I noticed the other day that one of the lines was out entirely. To try to figure out what was wrong, heres what I did:
1 Switched the lines on the terminals to see if the problem was in the transformer. The lights on the same line were still out, so its not a problem in the terminal;
2 I took a light from the working line and put it on the line that was out, and it worked. So its not the cable.
3 I took the first and last light from the line that was out and attached them to the line that was still working, and neither one worked.
So from that, all I can think of is that all the fixtures somehow failed at exactly the same time, but that seems very unlikely to me. Could that be it? Or is there some other possible explanation?
Thanks very much for any suggestions
Matt
789
Anonymous
2019-05-08 16:13:27
There was a line of very cheap BW portable TV sets in the 60s that used a
capacitor to drop the voltage for the filament string.
I think I remember Delmonica .
The set was for 120 volts, but I think a European version for 220 volts
just used a smaller capacitor.