electric girdies
bdalbol
2012-01-14 23:14:37
hi all wanted to post some pics of my electric girdie setup if anybody is intrested.Im new to trolling and fish out of california.I run a 26 foot osprey and didnt want to drill a bunch of holes in the boat for hydraulic lines.this setup works well,pulls a 50 lb lead about 50 ft. a minute and smaller leads faster.the motor and gear box is from a saftey puller crab pot puller and ran about 1k per side. they are controlled from a air op. foot switch which is really handy.I have dual groop 31 batterys to run them and they will fish for a full day even fishing 300ft deep.
Salty
2012-01-15 01:27:10
I don't see how they are isolated. Need to have the gurdies totally isolated from the hull and all electrical.
salmon4u
2012-01-15 03:25:44
those look cool! I bet they're nice and quiet also
bdalbol
2012-01-15 03:45:49
salty, boat is fiberglass and if I have any "stray voltage" at the cable the power connection is a twist lock plug at the gurdie.
SilverT
2012-01-15 04:24:22
bdalbol,
Those do look cool, particularly for a small boat and I too was also wondering about the isolation. The foot switch sounds great, as it's easy to bump the regular handles. When the motors are turning, have you tested the voltage down the wire? How about when you are trolling, not operating the motors? Are you running a diesel for power/ charging? I only ask because keeping our batteries charged is probably our greatest daily headache. I was also wondering how much the motors and batteries weigh.
Our boat is fiberglass too. The gurdies looked almost identical to yours, including the plate they are bolted to. We had bolted them to the fiberglass with no plastic isolating them from the fiberglass. The first year we fished the voltage down the wire read 0.00V because our gurdies were grounded through the metal in the hydraulic hoses leading to the 5hp electric start motor we used to power them. I purchased isolation hoses with no wire in them and installed. Tested the voltage the next day and it read a steady 0.73V down the wire on both sides with no stray voltage. That's just the natural voltage our boat throws when it is moving through the water. We caught nothing that morning. About 11 a.m. I had enough and pulled the isolation hoses off and we caught steadily for the rest of the day with 0.00V. Neutral was better than too hot.
The next year, I isolated everything, purchased a cheap black box and had one of the best king years of my life. It would pale in comparison to lots of folks, but there is no doubt that being able to dial the voltage in put a lot more fish in the boat. What folks are wondering is how a person can use the setup you have, yet completely control the voltage down the wire. If I understand your post correctly you disconnect the motors once you are trolling? It sure would be nice to have something that quiet and not have to be refueling the engine I use all the time.
Thanks,
Lane
Salty
2012-01-15 04:42:49
Good discussion. We fished electric gurdies on the Nohusit for years. In retrospect I believe it is part of the reason my father did not do as well as he should have. While voltage borders on black magic I am a firm believer in managing it as best as possible. I think Lane's discussion is right on. Good luck.
bdalbol
2012-01-15 04:51:02
salty I certianly value your opinion from previous posts.is there anything besides stray voltage down the wire I should check? thanks brian
Salty
2012-01-15 21:35:18
Be sure all your metal is bonded to the engine. Double up your bonding straps to your rudder and underwater metal so if one strap fails you are still bonded. I actually go forward with one strap up through a through hull, and aft up onto the rudder shaft with another. I also tie in all the aluminum superstructure, mast, poles, shelter deck etc.
A black box to check your voltage is helpful but not necessary if you have and use a good voltmeter. You should be between .5 and .8 differential between your wire and your bonding system with your wire in the water at trolling speed. You need to be isolated with your gurdy motor running because you should get a good number of bites while working your gear.
Also check all your leads for voltage on your wire. If you find any with a high deviation, then retire it. I checked all my leads on the boat last summer, about 14, and found one way off.
I could write a book on problems with voltage, but Malcolm Russell out of Victoria, BC. is the guru. I have him check out my boat every time he is in town. He has found things like pump switches leaking juice into my system, lights wired with the wrong polarization, and verified problems I found, with help from friends, like a transducer leaking juice into my field. It helps to compare notes with peers about your general fishing ability so when you aren't catching you can double check. I have had spells when I was getting beat ten to one, 20-2, 50-4, 30-1, etc. which alerted me to a problem. One time, after fixing the problem, I was the top guy in our group with 49 winter Chinook the very next day.
Chums are particularly sensitive to voltage, but that is a whole different story still evolving.
Finally I see three levels here. 1. Your field is screwed up and you aren't catching. 2. Your voltage is ok and you are doing allright. 3. Your voltage is in the magic zone and you are smoking hot, your confidence in your system is total, and you can't honestly compare scores with any of your peers because it will destroy their confidence and their fishing.
With 30 trollers fishing a hatchery area you are averaging half the weekly catch. Not half the average, but half the total. You are unloading your weekly catch at three different processors to dilute your deliveries.
I have experienced #1 too often, usually am in #2, and seldom achieved number 3, but; I know trollers who have, and I keep dreaming about it.
Good luck.
bdalbol
2012-01-15 21:54:21
salty thanks for the advice.I want to be sure Im ready and dialed in for the upcoming season.hopes are high down here that the recovery is in full swing.last year the opener out of fort bragg there were some great scores for the first month of the season.(northern season usually opens july 23).on a bad note we still havent go any snow in the mountians in calif. and the way the pumps in the delta running good winters are our only hope.thanks again for the tips
When I was fishing Chum in the Dog Patch - I was always certain that you were in the #3 category you describe in your post, Salty. I used to marvel at your operation from afar and finally I couldn't stand the disparity in our catches any longer and had to start asking you questions so I could avoid the embarrassment of delivering my paltry Chum catches under cover of darkness when no other trollers were around. How come you are in the #2 category now? :-/
Capt. Midnite
2012-01-16 03:57:05
I would have drilled the holes, chacing stray voltage with my hydraulic system is bad enough. I've known a couple of guys with small boats that have tried systems simular to this with limited results. I hope you can make it work. If things are not right it can get costly. Good luck.
Jon
F.V. Shooting Star
Ft. Bragg Ca.
bdalbol
2012-01-16 04:49:10
can anybody tell me if copper based bottom paint is anything to worry about?I have about one more season left on it before I will strip and repaint.
bdalbol
2012-01-16 04:52:01
jon hows the new boat working out?Ive admired it a few times walking the docks in noyo.does the steel hull fish better than fiber. or wood?
Capt. Midnite
2012-01-16 05:06:56
Well, I spent the better part of 30yrs. on a wood boat (Compagno) a great double ender that in some ways I really miss, I don't think anything rides like wood. Steel is a whole different world, the main reason I bought the Shooting Star was the comfort factor, I'm getting old and soft, I like my huge bunk and the shower is real nice too, boats are nothing but a trade off if you ask me, you seem to always have to give up one thing to get another. I haven't been able to use the boat much since I've had it, Chemo therapy got in the way, but you will likley see the boat not sitting around much this coming season. I've been doing quite a bit of work on the boat to get things working the way I want. Next time your by the river stop by.
bdalbol
2012-01-16 05:14:59
jon do you plan on fishing the central season or just the horse mtn. opener?dont have my hopes up longterm but the next two years look promising.may cant come soon enough. brian
Capt. Midnite
2012-01-16 05:23:52
My habit has always been to be parked at Pigeon Pt. on May 1, but who knows, when I lived and fished out of Sausalito that was easy now it's a long ride but I'll probably be there.
Salty
2012-01-16 19:05:52
On being in stage 2 chum fishing last year. The fishery was different, is different every year. I did not adapt as well last year as I have in some years. And the top end was different. A good day last year for the fleet targeting chums was 200 fish. The average chum per boat fishing the top week in Icy Straits was 350 for the week. I am set up for better days. Scratching 50 or so chums a day drives me crazy and I keep looking for better.
The fleet was so big in both Icy Straits and Behm Canal that we never got the chance to work on schooled up fish. I love working schools, getting the schools coming into the boat, keeping them on the gear. I got two passes on one school that backed out over a line one day last year. I am worried that a huge fleet where ever there is a chum is our future and that means the big days are all history. One of the few things that is constant from year to year is that lots of troll gear spook the chums and puts them off the bite.
Nevertheless I am plugging away with our Chum Trollers Association trying to protect the opportunity we have and open new area for Dipac chums. The only way trollers get their share of the SE enhanced salmon allocation pie is by harvesting more hatchery chum. The difference between our share, 32%, and what we have been catching, 19%, was worth over $4 million last year.
But don't worry about me, I had some great days Chinook fishing last year, had a really fun coho trip in calm waters capitalizing on a tip from a retired friend, and scratched up a few pinks and chums. My relationships with the trollers I communicate with and my crew was the best, except for one bad crew week, in my fishing career. Every year, between my boys and my partners, the technology for finding the fish, handling the gear and fish, and communicating about the fishing improves. Last year we made significant strides in all three areas.
Thanks for asking.
Salty
2012-01-16 19:05:53
On being in stage 2 chum fishing last year. The fishery was different, is different every year. I did not adapt as well last year as I have in some years. And the top end was different. A good day last year for the fleet targeting chums was 200 fish. The average chum per boat fishing the top week in Icy Straits was 350 for the week. I am set up for better days. Scratching 50 or so chums a day drives me crazy and I keep looking for better.
The fleet was so big in both Icy Straits and Behm Canal that we never got the chance to work on schooled up fish. I love working schools, getting the schools coming into the boat, keeping them on the gear. I got two passes on one school that backed out over a line one day last year. I am worried that a huge fleet where ever there is a chum is our future and that means the big days are all history. One of the few things that is constant from year to year is that lots of troll gear spook the chums and puts them off the bite.
Nevertheless I am plugging away with our Chum Trollers Association trying to protect the opportunity we have and open new area for Dipac chums. The only way trollers get their share of the SE enhanced salmon allocation pie is by harvesting more hatchery chum. The difference between our share, 32%, and what we have been catching, 19%, was worth over $4 million last year.
But don't worry about me, I had some great days Chinook fishing last year, had a really fun coho trip in calm waters capitalizing on a tip from a retired friend, and scratched up a few pinks and chums. My relationships with the trollers I communicate with and my crew was the best, except for one bad crew week, in my fishing career. Every year, between my boys and my partners, the technology for finding the fish, handling the gear and fish, and communicating about the fishing improves. Last year we made significant strides in all three areas.
Thanks for asking.
SilverT
2012-01-16 21:48:28
bdalbol,
Malcom, the afore-mentioned guru says that paint containing cuprous oxide increases the field of positive ions created around the boat. Higher cuprous oxide content is better and stay away from anything less than 34% if possible.
Have a great season,
Lane
carojae
2012-01-16 23:59:10
Re: Category 1,2,3.
Right on. I can agree with that analysis.
I would add a 3.1 to that though; the guy who just screws a zinc here and there and continually smokes the hell out of everyone. Floyd Peterson comes to mind when he commercial power trolled he just kind of shrugged off the zincing theories.
*He continues to make a season today before most ever put a line in the water today hand trolling for winter kings. A very skilled fisherman.
:D
Jim
Salty
2012-01-17 02:28:12
We all know a few guys like that.
Ralph Guthrie comes to mind for me along with some still living. I swear they manufacture King salmon under their boats.
The true test of a fisherman though, and Ralph passed it, is not how many fish you catch but whether you helped make the resource, the industry, better for your having been a part of it. Floyd fits the bill as he has worked hard to protect habitat for salmon in SE and to allow hand cranked downriggers in the winter hand troll fishery.
charger
2012-01-17 03:54:26
Salty, you stated early in this post to test your lead voltage, how are you completing this? I use ganyon line for break away straps, do they isolate the lead from wire at all, changing the field around the ball? I have been pouring my own leads for awhile now, people stating not to use recycled with the possibility of battery lead, dose it really make a difference? I've used tire lead, but it has tin in it and a 60 lb. lead comes in at 55 lbs. This discussion has open fear in my heart, I've been blessed, not braggin the boat is fishing great, black box on/off/pulse just didn't matter. This winter installing new generator, all new three phase wiring. Two compressor units, fan unit, FAS equipment. Might need help in the spring.
carojae
2012-01-17 04:16:30
Although I didn't know Ralph, I enjoyed listening to him talk on the radio. WIsh I could have met him.
Jim
Salty
2012-01-31 07:40:21
On testing leads. Get a clip so you can clip your lead easily onto your strap or onto the end of your wire. Test a few leads to see what they read with about 2 fathoms of wire out. You test the leads by testing your the differential between the wire the lead is on and your bonding strap. Write down the voltage of every lead. Ideally they all should be within 2 or three tenths of the average. .54- .56 for example if the average was .56. If you get one at .50 or .64 for example, and everything else is constant then you know you have a bad lead. The average should be between .5 and .8.
Good luck! And sometime when you are nailing them with that hot hootchie you can e-mail me a picture of it.
bdalbol
2012-01-31 17:10:21
salty, I run a 12" piece of nylon cord from end of wire to leads.will I still see the change in voltage from different leads? thanks brian
Salty
2012-01-31 18:37:00
The length of your cord will affect your voltage so keep the same cord for all the tests. Tie a stainless clip on the lead end so you can snap into the ring on the lead. We almost all use between 6 inches and 2 feet of cord of some kind between the wire and the lead. You can increase your voltage in most cases by increasing the length of your cord.
ptsczza
2015-04-02 05:59:56
Hello salty, did you ever do anything with the electric gurdies?
ptsczza
2015-04-02 06:03:23
Hello bdalbol,
Are you still using the electric gurdies? I am looking into for my small boat 21' Striper....only planning on running one line off each side.
Just looking for some help from someone who knows....you sound like you know....would love to chat if you have the time.
Thanks....Matt
bdalbol, I've never seen anything like this before. My hat off to whoever engineered them. Like Salty mentioned, as stands they're not isolated from the mounting plate, therefore not isolated from the boat. To rectify, cut 1.5-2" blocks of starboard marine grade plastic, drill a 3/8" hole in the center and mount your gurdies on the mounting plate using the plastic blocks as spacers between the mounting plate and the gurdies. Use either nylon or fiberglass bolts. And, SikaFlex the top of the bolt heads so water can not penetrate the bolt threads. I don't know how to isolate the electric motor; it'll take some trial and error to figure out. Start by taking readings with the voltmeter before you connect the electricity.
Looks like the gurdies have not been cleaned for sometime. Suggest you tear them down and clean the green stuff off all contact points. This will allow voltage from the black box to flow freely, otherwise you will likely have different readings for each spool (not a good thing).
Someone mentioned bottom paint. Do not use ablative paint. You want "hard fouling paint." I lived this nightmare. Cuprous oxide content, as mention, needs to be over 34%, but more is "gooder". Always use the bottom of the can on the back of the boat. The copper is heavy and never fully suspends when mixed. The bottom of the can will always have the highest concentration of Cu. And that is part of the hull potential and ion stream equations.
Zinc pattern and amount is extremely important, but boat specific. And, you have to keep them active by scrubbing the substrate (the white stuff) off during the season. Keep in mind it takes about 48 hours for new zincs to be fully active.
Salty mentioned measuring lead. Very important to get rid of leads out of your range; usually they are contaminated with something. Pure lead will measure .555. As Salty mentioned, you want to measure all leads, take an average, and keep the ones that are within 10% up and down from the average. Get rid of the ones which fall out of the range. Also, when measuring the leads they need to be scrubbed bright for a true reading. SS double twisted brush on a cordless drill does the trick within minutes. I scrub my balls every morning before throwing them in the water and sometimes during the day.
The break away lines (cord between wire and leads) can effect the line voltage. Longer breakaways increase voltage a small amount. These lines need to be changed periodically during the season as they become salt impregnated and start to conduct. Use something non-conductive like seiner's twine. Tuna cord, because of the cotton content, needs to be changed more frequently.
In my experience it is the other way around. Longer break away will decrease voltage, shorter or even direct connect, will make the line hotter.
I suspect this could be a different scenario when applied on different boats, but based on my experience with 3 different trollers, I have to agree with Lulu's statement - lengthening the "break away"/isolator lines between cannonbballs and the trolling wire adds a small amount of voltage to your system.
I'm probably mistaken. The fishing has been good the last 2 years, so I haven't been in the pit with a multimeter for a while.
2 years ago when there were fish at icy straight, I tried 1 side direct connect and 1 side long breaking straps. I couldn't see any difference in the amount they caught over 2 weeks.
Salty
2015-04-04 15:14:40
A thread long dormant comes back to life. Lulu seems to be communicating good information based on my limited knowledge. Lengthening your connection strap or putting in a strap boosts your voltage up to a tenth. Shiny, brushed leads do appear to fish better. I am not as diligent as Lulu but I brush em up before openings. I also store em in plastic lead holders rather than metal. I have my gurdies connected so as to have a uniform field.
But, see the Lowliner thread, I might be a good example of what not to do.
there are the guys who have forgotten more than most know. Zincs and bottom paint are only part of the equation. Some of the other factors are experience, location, presentation, and luck. For the rest of us, every small improvement we can make will help catch up to the guys who seem to catch more than the norm. Look at the top producers year in and year out. They pay attention to the details.
Longer breakaways increase the line potential because the voltage has a longer jump to the lead. You can cool the line down by shortening the breakaway. Think of your lead as a ground the line voltage has to migrate to. (not absolutely accurate, but helps in visualizing what is happening) That is one reason the breakaways need to be changed before they become a conductor. The other side will argue that the surrounding sea water will act as a conductor, which is true. But the direct connection is the most important. The forward motion of the boat diminishes the sea water's ability to conduct current.
I understand the observation that it didn't seem to make a difference. My experience is the small details don't make much difference when there are a lot of fish, but in a scratch the details add up.
Salty
2015-04-05 23:56:46
Good stuff Lulu. Took me many years to learn much of what you have shared concisely and articulately. I agree that trolling is a lot about small details any one of which might not seem to make much of a difference but in sum over the course of the season or even on one day can make a tremendous difference. Look at the difference in chum bites you can get with the right size lure at the optimum speed versus what you would catch with coho lures at coho speed.
What helps to determine if you are fishing at an optimum is to develop communication and friendships with some of the true Highliners who fish your area. Because of my efforts as an advocate for trollers in marketing, enhancement, and quality I have had the good fortune to be able to learn from some of the masters here. It is unbelievably humbling to think you are doing just fine, and you might be by most of the guys on the drag, and find out that the top guy or guys are doubling or tripling you. Attention to both the tiniest details and a perception of the bigger picture at the same time characterizes the maters. Mastering both the craft and the art of this trolling is a rare achievement. I am still seeking my optimism. Maybe this season.
dellori3
2015-05-06 17:11:33
What was your engine alternator size?
dellori3
Disperser
2015-06-22 23:47:52
Just a note, I have an elecfric windlass on my 48ton 65 footer, the seal broke, water poured in when a freak wave caught me, and my 1/4 in wall aluminum motor houising disintegrated in a ball of fire, fortunately my ship isn't plastic.
Electricity gets along very poorly with salt water. My windlass will be hydraulic, powered by a 12v pump safely tucked in the driest part of my boat.
When hydraulics fail, you get a slick and lose some fish until you fix the system. A failure of the electric sytem means putting into port for replacement unless you have spares.
So, how has the system worked so far? Any potential for such failures?