Brain fart - Forums Archive

Salty

2008-04-17 17:43:18

Winter quota to spring quota. This is an idea Fred and another young fisherman, who chose to leave his name off of the proposal, worked up. Figuring out where to put the extra fish in terms of trying to adjust the caps upward depending on the percentage of hatchery fish will have to be worked out. The 500 fish example in the proposal is just an example.

For example you could front load those fish in May when the price was best or you could concentrate them on the areas where the hatchery % was highest yet still ran up against the cap. Another possibility would be to use them in the 20% areas because those usually are closed by the caps the quickest and have the best quality fish. Anyway the important thing is that these treaty fish generate the highest return possible to the fleet especially when we are going to have less of them. Catching them in May and June and adding hatchery fish with them is the highest possible return.

The problem is that ATA, bless its heart, is led by board members who mostly concentrate their troll fishery in July and August. While their position is legitimate in that lots of trollers do other things and can not fish in May and June concentrating our treaty Chinook harvest in July and August reduces the overall value of Chinook as opposed to harvesting more orf them when they are worth more.

Personally I have always been in favor of investing treaty fish where they bring us the most return and in the long term that will benefit everyone. But, I troll salmon all year long and work real hard in May and June. So I will personally benefit from more fish in May and June.

I would like us to possibly think about our May and June openings in terms of "market opportunity" instead of just as hatchery harvest opportunities. That way we could schedule some openings for Craig and Yakutat in May and June. Also, the number one eating out day in America is Mother's day. We could schedule a market opening region wide timed to Mothers Day. Which brings up the big barbeque day in America which is the 4th of July. Why don't we schedule our summer opening a few days earliar so we could have our trips in in time to make the markets for the 4th? But, the majority of trollers are vested in the status quo, are old (average age 58) and generally suspicious of moves to change.

On the other side, we would never have been able to extend the spring season without ATA finally supporting it. And that is going to really help salvage this winter season for a few guys. If you aren't an ATA member and you are fishing the next two weeks take the return from two of those nice fish and send in your dues.

yak2you2

2008-04-20 07:24:09

Salty, thanks for thinking of, and bringing up those of us far removed from hatcheries. It would be nice to be included for once in Yakutat. Keep talking like that, and I might have to go join the ATA. Up until recently i've felt left out up here, or worse, with some of the disputes our area has had with the ATA in the past,but i'm feeling better about things.

The only concerns about quota reassignment I have is, I wouldn't want it to turn into the year-rounders VS. snowbird fleet.

Meaning there is a large group of folks who never take the tarp off until the 1st of April every year, and target the spring fishery. While a quota reassignment sounds great this year ( if Yakutat were included that is), we've all seen years when the winter quota was sucked up by the first week of April. I would'nt want the snowbird fleet to get to used to the loaned out quota, and come to expect it. We already have enough folks out there looking for bigger slices of pie. I'm not saying that's for sure what would happen, but if it worked, and people made some money at it, they would want it to stay that way.

To air it out entirely, I guess i'd have to say, I've been here. All winter. Shoveling, window scraping, taking freezing spray in the face, hoping for my daily bread, but it DID pay out for me, and for a lot of other year around local folks. To have a bunch of dudes roll in in May, make a killing in their T-shirts on this years left over quota, and then expect it from then on, and force the winter fishery that we live on to close the first of March some other year for lack of quota, doesn't seem fair.

Lastly, my guess is your going to have a hard sell getting any kind of new opener for those of us who don't have a hatchery near by we can use as our excuse for a 65% wild salmon opener, like all the rest of the hatchery openers are. It's a shame that catching a wild, un-assigned, king salmon in the ocean has turned into such a bad thing, but that's the reality of it. We have nothing to hide behind over here. Sure, you can take any fish we were allowed off of the quota, but there will be those who say were intercepting fish that shouldn't be caught. In our case, our main fishing drag is 6 miles away from the Mouth of the Situk river. A May/June opener would be accused of affecting the situk's king run, which is only about 600-800 spawners per year. The state will surely oppose an opener for us. My main arguement has always been, they used to troll kings the WHOLE summer here for decades, including the month's of May and June. It didn't wipe them out then, why should it now? But I'm affraid it would be a losing battle.

It just feels like were going to ultimately come out on the short end of things, no matter what.

yak2you2

2009-01-19 18:03:06

The state's website shows that we are currently even further behind than where we were last year at this time on winter king catches. So, what now? Were going to have to come with a plan of some kind that everybody can live with. The summer guys want their way, the spring guys want their way, the winter guys want their way, Yakutat and Craig want any way that will include them. I get a mental picture of an Eskimo blanket toss, with a big circle of people all tugging on the same blanket, yanking this way and that.

To be honest, I'm lost, and I'm looking for someone to believe in. Someone that we can just say, "here fix this" to, but I don't think it's going to be that easy.

Our fish quotas are smaller, our needs are greater, we ALL want more fish.

All I know is; it's going to take a lot of patience, understanding, and hard work if were ever going to get headed in the same direction. I trust the ATA, I believe in my fellow fishermen, is that going to be enough...... I hope so.

We need a fair and equitable plan,,,,,man.

yak2you2

2009-01-20 04:49:09

Or to be more specific, let's take a hypothetical look at it. Let's say we roll any left over fish from this winter over on to the spring opener, and let's say we include Yakutat and Craig in the spring fisheries. What then? What about guys from all the other little places? I agree that calling a king opener a hatchery fishery when your not actually targeting majority hatchery fish, is an obvious guise, but how are else are you really going to do it? If your not going to use the hatcheries as boundries, you might as well just have a general opener, it's the only way to truly be fair to everyone. But if you do that, your going to take a huge chunk out of the quota and remember, we only have so many fish to work with. So, what are the guys who like July openers going to say?

The community of Yakutat deserves a piece of the spring quota action, but what determines what a community is? How about Point Baker, their a community, surely their going to want in.

So it's complicated. Is there a conspiracy by the ATA to hold down the little guys? I don't think so. Ultimately it's the state's job to regulate the fisheries fairly, and I wouldn't want their job right now. They have but one basket of fish to feed 5000 people with, it would take a miracle.

Less fishermen would solve it, but Canada's ahead of us on the buy out issue, and nobody wants to sell, their fishermen, they want to fish, so that doesn't work.

All I know is, the dams, the agricultural run off, over usage of water, and total mismanagement of resources on a lot of the rivers south of us, isn't going away anytime soon, if at all, so were all going to have to share better.

yak2you2

2009-01-20 05:40:57

It should be obvious to all that I personally prefer the winter fishery, why? because thats when the fish is worth the most. However, that's just me, other guys have just as much right to want to catch them when it suites them too . The bottom line is, I, and most of us, are just fisherman. What do I know about why things are the way they are? There is undoubtedly unwritten reasons why things are the way they are, that have to be factored in. There's treaty issues, mortality issues, all of these things usually have a cause and affect on our other fisheries if their not handled in a certain way. Remember, we still need to consider our coho fisheries the bread and butter, we wouldn't want to screw that up and get ourselves shut down by killing to many little guys early in the year.

Solving anything is still going to be complicated, I just think that we have to start by assuming that were all on the same team, instead of otherwise.

sixlines

2009-01-20 17:44:20

Well Yak 2 you 2,Stop and think about it for a minut what your saying about you would rather have more fish for winter quota.We cant catch them all right now as it is.All we are going to get is scaps if we dont go for the same fishing time as the rest of southeast.The winter fishery should go till quota is caught .The summer fishery works that way..We will get Yakutat opened for spring Kings,THEY CANT STOP US,IT IS OUR RIGHT TO FISH.We now have some solid backing on this.As far as the Situk stopping us,Until F&G does something to help those kings nothing is going to change there.Some of us have been doing research to counter them on this very subject.Everybody thats been following this spring king issue agrees.We have Tlingit & haida reagin behind us Sea alaska,YTT & Yak-kwaawn also and the City of Yakutat.Theres already attorneys circling like sharks on a dead whale.Im going to step out of bounds for a minut here.Area D is a big area.Will it open for spring kings?My own personal thoughts, never.But 183-10 yes, I do believe it will.Heres a thought,Lets take the remainder of the winter quota and do a test fishery in Yakutat & petersburge.We need more than a 1000 fish to to get any solid evidence on whats here as far as wild to hatchery #s.We have a 1000 fish fishery right now thats being stopped F&G right now.Lets look at that for a minut.The situk king-Theres no sportfishing for them,theres no gillnetting for them,theres no trolling for them.What the HELL F&G,They are useing a very small chunk of fish to surpress our community as a whole.They use those fish to regulate our whole fishery here,and anyone call them and ask them what kind of enhancement their doing to help them rebound and they will tell you we have stopped the retention of them.But yet they give the commercialnetter permision to retain them for personal use so out of all the gillnetters how many do you think get released?Well next to none.Im upset right now,Im going to the coffee shop before I type something I shouldnt.

kingquota

2009-09-19 19:39:08

Here is another Yakutat view.

Hey Jon,

Walter Johnson here (kingquota) in response to your request for the history of Area D (Yakutat) and this is how I remembered it when it took place in the late 70;s.I was the 1st Yakutat Fish and Game Advisory, Fishery Chairman at the time.

During the late 70's, Kings were a a high time LOW and the SOA, Department of F & G (Dept) had the information to prove it. The Dept asked all user groups to forego fishing kings for a few years to allow the kings to recover, which all user groups agreed. In addition, the trollers agreed to have the power trollers to have four lines, from as many as they could run and the Hand trollers to two lines from four intil such time that the Kings could recover for a FEW YEARS. So they closed all of southeast to the retention of kings. Prior to that time, ALL of Southeast was open for fishing for kings, INCLUDING AREA D!

The local department of Fisheries were trying to close Yakutat Breaker fishing at the time and Yakutat fishermen opposed and we went to court in 1979 or 1980. In 1981, when Kings were re-openned for catching and selling, the lines given up for the trollers were not returned. Nor was the ADEA D re-openned. I do not think that it is just coincidence that AREA D was not open as it was prior to the SoA Dept closure. It was in retaliation to our Lawsuit and of that I am convinced. It also must be that the hand trollers with two lines are more of a threat to the king resourse that the power trollers. For the power trollers have two of their lines returned even if it is restricted. Excuse me if I sound like we are being discriminated against, for everyone that is against such things know where I am coming from. More later, Jon I may get to far into this that will destroy the crediabilty of which I write.

Hello Jon,

I will try again, this time I will stay on the subject.

Well before the kings recovered sufficently enough to re-open, the North Pacific Salmon Treaty came into being in 1981 (?) according to the charts of the Department and the treaty quota came into being with firm numbers in 1985. The trolling lines fell through the cracks as well as the promises of the department, without saying so did Area D and all that was given up for the kings to recover has been lost ever since . Except for the recent limited two give back lines of the power trollers. The hand trollers have been cut by almost two thirds since they gave up the two lines, for most of them couldn't make a go of it with two or went to another fishery. Still the hand trollers have not gotten their lines returned as promised. The department must be either (1) trying to do away with hand trollers or (2) figure they hurt the resourse so bad (.025 %) that they don't need the two lines back. It is a long way from the hand trollers quota of 20 % of the trolling quota. The Area D has been grandfathered in from the closure when all agreed to quit fishing for kings. The rest goes along with what i said in the last post. This is how I remembered it and as ,I think it was Salty, said theat memory has a way of changinng over the years. If I am wrong in what I have said, I have no problem getting corrected. Which may bring back my memory and I will admit it if my memory failed. All the rest will stand until corrected.

As stated by sixlines, Yakutat is trying to get our area D re-openned as it was before our volunteer closure. For all species. Otherwise our village will continue with the downward spiral it is in right now. there is no way to know when it will stop without our Area D being openned again.