Bill M
2009-04-11 21:13:58
I have a question for the guys who are running or have run hand trollers. How far off the wire do you typically run your gear. I've tinkered on this one with a friend of mine who runs a boat this way and we completely disagree.
yak2you2
2009-04-12 06:22:48
I'm not sure I understand the question. Are you referring to leader lengths? if so there are lots of variables that determine the right leader length based on the boat your running, current condition your dragging in, and what species your targeting.
Bill M
2009-04-12 12:55:16
That is indeed the reference I'm making. I ran "my" side of the boat staggered and tapered to the top. I tried simplicity and my basic thoughts on physics of trying to keep gear from tackling eachother. his wire was single fathom marked and I ran half the gear and brought in as many on my side of the boat. There are so many variables and I admit I am new enough that I'd like to learn more from people's experience rather than play 20 years of trial and error ;)
yak2you2
2009-04-12 17:13:37
Well, first it depends on the boat your fishing out of. I've always been jealous of the guys who get to fish out of the old double enders with no obstructions. I have outboards hanging off of the back of my little boat, so I prefer longer leaders so my gear will trail back behind all that to avoid tangle ups. each type of gear gets a different length on my boat, also to avoid tangle ups. A lot of guys swear that leaders all have to be uniform length so they can "climb" up the gear. I've not found this to be the case. My ball spoon is usually 3 to 4 feet to avoid tangle ups with the bottom. My flashers are usually 3 fms. and my spoon leaders are usually 1 fm.. I stagger stuff alot to avoid long leaders reaching each other and tangling up. Plugs I run WAY back, like 5 to 10 fms. I run 1.5 fm. stops.
Individual species vary tremendously. I spread out for kings, but cohos I will load on as much gear as I can run without tangling. If your in a bite, shorter gear is alot faster to handle. I.E.- 1fm. dodgers with hootchies.
the closer to your wire you get the faster your gear will work. So, if your dragging into a tremendous current, longer gear will keep your gear from windmilling. Conversely, shorter gear going with a heavy current will keep your gear going the right speed and working right.
Consider that water gets more dense the deeper you go creating more drag, if your fishing really deep, the gear on the bottom is working harder that the stuff on the top.
On smaller boats like mine the one thing that must always be considered is, on a turn one side is going faster than the other, so they can cross, every boat has a limit to how long leaders can be before this becomes a frequent problem. You don't want tangle ups, it's a real test of the patience, and costs you money in the way of lost fishing time if the bites on. Best thing you can do if you do get tangled is cut your way out and retie. It's easier than trying to untangle it, odds are your leaders will be to kinked to save anyway. If your running four lines, which even hand trollers can now do in certain places, having your inside lines shorter will help avoid tangles as well.
If you look over the side at your wire as it's going through the water you notice a bubble being ripped behind the wire. A person's initial thought is that the further away from the rip of the wire the better, sometimes I still feel that way, but other times I almost wonder if the disturbance doesn't almost excite them. I know guys who catch just fine with what I deem to be ridiculously short leaders.
Tail leaders from the flasher to the bait or bug can vary alot too. You'll run into guys who swear that you should always run the exact same length, each and every time. I know this is not the case. Different leaders work better at certain times.
I realize that all this has been kind of vague, but that's kind of my point, there are no rules. Experimentation and keeping a detailed log of what, where, when. how deep, and how fast, etc. is the best way to dial in what your looking for. Go visit with ten good trollers, you'll find that all of them run different gear, different lengths, and different speeds, but at the end of the day, they usually come home about the same. Most of the true highliners I know, do so my very different means. they get out earlier, stay longer, and look harder for where the fish are. as far as I can see, these are the things that matter more than anything else.
I hope this helps you.
Bill M
2009-04-13 06:24:32
It was exactly what I was looking for! Thanks
Salty
2009-04-16 19:48:52
I agree with all above except the get out earlier, fish harder, etc. In this business we do not get rewarded for the time we put in. We get rewarded for what we deliver. Everything else being equal the guy putting in the most time, working the hardest will deliver the most. But, everything else is not equal. I remember a famous seine highliner from Petersburg that always tried to be the last out of the harbor before an opening and the first in.
Not that I catch much, but I am sure the single most important piece of advice I ever got on trolling was from Chuck Barker who had the Martin. He came over to my boat, the Sudan at the time, and spent a couple of hours talking gear, fishing, about my father etc. He told me the story of saving the "Barker hook" (95165 Mustad) and other interesting gear details that I still benefit from. I thought the way to make it trolling was to be the first out and the last in, like my idol, Jim Moore, on the Aljac. Unfortunately this led to being tired all the time and fishing tough weather etc. The truth is that all of us have different metabolisms and some of us need more sleep than others. Chuck, who put in extremely long hours himself, told me to "Remember that we get paid for what we deliver, not for the hours we put in." The point being that exhaustion does not lead to good decisions and optimum production for our situations.
Good information, for example, usually trumps longer hours in our business. Optimum market situations trumps higher production for example. Having the "Barker hook" on the right spoon produces more fish in less hours than another hook on the same spoon. Using the right size and flavor hootchie will often produce way more in less time than dragging the wrong one for many more hours. Developing a round pink market in Cross Sound for two years before the main buyer and the rest of the humpie fishermen came over was worth way more than putting in more hours catching and dressing humpies. One call to one buyer in Petersburg who decided to buy all the round troll chums we could produce one year was worth more than getting up earlier and fishing longer for coho every day that season.
Being sharp enough to make the decision to recognize a dying bite and move to an area where the bite is about to start can be worth more than putting in longer days on the dying bite. Nothing against hard work and long hours, particularly when you are on the bite, but don't think that the guy working the hardest trolling is always the guy delivering the most. But, then when you are catching and the magic is with you it is hard to resist putting that gear, the magic to work.
Catching 50 coho after the last other guy went in and then getting up early and catching 50 more before the first other guy comes out has a special kind of sweetness. Of course it couldn't happen if you hadn't charged the glow in the dark needlefish hootchies that those coho were taking at dusk and dawn after they stopped hitting spoons.
davidtettleton
2009-05-04 04:59:16
That is some good advice. It's hard to have the good, lucky feeling, too when a person is worn out and frustrated by this or that.
old deckhand
2009-06-03 14:36:16
Most of us would love to have Jim Moore's delivery.
boatpuller
2009-06-04 04:50:13
I've been a frequent visitor to this site and have really enjoyed the discussions and especially the pictures. Salty's reference to Chuck Barker in his post of April 16, however, has compelled me to join in. I grew up on trollers on the Washington Coast. In 1974 at the age of 16, I went north with Chuck on the Tony K. Chuck and the Tony K were unique, some of you may recall the trolling poles on the Tony K, they were, without a doubt, the most massive wooden poles on any troller. Time may have warped my memory some, but I recall that they were 10 inches in diameter at the base. Chuck used to boast that he was the only man he knew who could raise them. As Salty alludes to, Chuck was a gear junkie, his onboard collection of hoochies was incredible. As I recall, hoochies were for mainly for silvers. On the grounds, it was herring and spoons. As much as a gear perfectionist as he was, his first rule was: you gotta be where the fish are, which explains the ground he could cover on a ten day trip (he didn't count the day out or the day in). Over the years, I got to know a cast of characters, but none that topped Chuck when it came to independence, toughness, or smarts. To this day, I consider it an honor to have fished with him.