Hand Troll or Power Troll?
Hello all,
I've been browsing this site for a number of years now, with the plans of getting into the industry in SE Alaska. I think I'm finally getting my family/work obligations in order to where I can legitimately peruse this dream during the summer months.
I've read quite a few post on here about the pros and cons of hand trolling. I know Salty has stated that hand trolling will eventually lead to a torn up shoulder, but...
Without offending anyone who relies on trolling as a serious business, this will be more of a hobby business for me, at least in the beginning. I've got a business plan put together (not one relying on me to catch a whole lot of salmon to keep from going under!) to pay for a vessel and a hand troll permit ready to start trolling summer of 2017 free and clear.
My questions to you guys is this:
Should I continue to save the funds to purchase a power troll permit right off the get go, even if it delays me a couple more seasons, or go ahead and get a hand troll permit so I can get my feet wet sooner? My main objective is to enjoy the summer, fish as much as I can in the most beautiful area God ever created, and hopefully make enough money to cover my costs... at least in the beginning. All while I try to learn what many of you have perfected over years of trial and error! As someone that is starting out green, will I really have the opportunity to catch a higher volume of fish power trolling to coincide with the higher cost of the power troll permit? My thoughts are with the lower investment of the hand troll permit, I'll be more content with lower catch rates. I'm middle aged, not that bad out of shape, medium build. I have never cranked on hand gurdies before, so I'm not real sure what to expect for physical exertion. I've read on here that some say chums aren't worth chasing with a hand troller just because of the effort it will take? Those are some of the questions I'm mulling over in my head. Trying not to overthink the situation, just wanting to make the best informed decision.
Thanks in advance for any and all advice. I am finally seeing the light at the end of the tunnel of this dream turning into a reality!
-Travis
Kelper
2016-04-08 18:13:52
What kind of boat are you going to get?
That's the other side of this equation that I'm trying to sort out... I have 26' C-Dory Pro Angler that I am debating on using and outfitting it like Yak2you2 did to Mai Tai. I also like the idea of the economics of a full displacement boat. Still debating the idea of speed and mobility vs. slow and lower fuel costs. I bought a Vashon Pocket troller a couple of years ago with the plans of using it for trolling, but soon realized I was about to put a substantial amount of money into her to get her to Bristol condition and worried that I would soon grow out of her. I have since sold the Vashon.
joeman79
2016-04-09 15:49:29
Make sure you have twice as much money than you think you'll need !! It's an expensive HOBBY LOL!!
Thanks Joeman79! I have thoroughly enjoyed reading your experiences getting started. Thanks for sharing, it is encouraging.
Salty
2016-04-19 22:18:33
Unless you plan to fish rods seriously I recommend power trolling. I would buy a permit, put power gurdies on your existing rig, maybe even fish two lines to start. I would not crank leads. I did that for 6 years. It cost me a lot of money and hurt me physically.
There are other threads on here with this thought. I have friends with power on small aluminum rigs (less than 25 feet) who are doing very well. They love the speed. I would love to have a comfortable 30 foot rig that went about 20 knots, packed 5,000 pounds, and slept 3 comfortably.
The overhead is too much to support traditional trolling any longer. My expenses to keep my 36 foot fiberglass boat in top condition, and keep up with latest gear and technology, plus pay crew decently are about $100,000 a year. And I have no boat or permit payments. I am making it because my wife is a retired teacher, we live frugally, and I have been lucky trolling. Looking at the CFEC earning breakdowns I do not know how most of the troll fleet is surviving.
On the other hand, it is a wonderful way to make a living.
joeman79
2016-04-20 20:09:20
Very good response Eric!
Brother Dave
2016-04-21 08:26:01
$100k expenses per year sounds high to me.
Salty
2016-04-21 13:27:21
Brother Dave,
Just two examples: Crew compensation plus Insurance for crew, pollution, liability and hull were over $40,000 last year and I am in two pools. Although not fully vested at present value or crew. Figure $5-10,000 for fuel depending on the season, and you are halfway there without moorage, maintenance, improvements, or any gear.
And last year was relatively poor in terms of total gross.
Granted, I am probably in top 10% in costs of maintenance and improvements for my vessel value. But, I like a safe, technologically competitive operation. Trolling is an expensive business. Have you priced lead or flashers lately? I run up to 100 flashers or more at a time with 240 lbs of lead out. Running into a reef can be really expensive.
Salty - It sounds to me like you need to do something about your "low-liner" status.
Brother Dave
2016-04-22 06:14:27
Salty, you have given some good examples of serious expenses. Thanks for the added info.
Someone needs to jump in here on the hand troll side, and it might as well be me. I can attest after 27 years of cranking that it won't wreck your shoulders, elbows, or wrists even if you fish 12 hours a day for 70-80 days a year. The secret is to have really good gurdies set up ergonomically and only use small cannonballs. The 20 lb leads fish well if you tune your gear for slower speeds, "fly" easily up over reefs, and go up and down quickly in a bite. Their cheap replacement cost allows you to risk dragging into tricky spots that power trollers shy away from. On the other hand, they aren't so great out in the open ocean with a fleet of bigger boats fishing faster and deeper.
Financially, hand trolling in a small displacement boat has the advantage of lower permit costs, lower fuel costs, lower crew costs, lower insurance costs, lower stall rents, and lower gear costs. How does $8,000/year in expenditures sound, with the other two thirds of your gross going to you? That's been my experience averaged over time. If you want to go fast in yacht-like splendor, wander all over chasing hot bites,
or take lots of days off during the season then your profit will be quite a bit less. But hand trolling can be viable option for you.
Thanks everyone for your advice. I guess I need to just make a decision and pull the trigger!
Sandlance
2016-04-24 03:08:20
I just started trolling last year. I decided to hop right in and power troll. My experience so far is that it is possible to earn a living trolling, but it's a lot of work and is about managing expenses almost as much as catching fish. Make sure you have enough cash reserves for everything to go wrong at once. Even if nothing goes wrong you'll be a lot happier knowing you have enough cash to handle the unexpected. Also something will always break, so you just have to hope its not major. I also don't have any children and fill my freezer with fish and game. My family trolled when I was a kid and I grew up in a trolling town so I wasn't totally unfamiliar with trolling. That being said, the amount of things to learn is staggering. It would take a life time to learn them all. I don't regret jumping straight into power trolling. The increased production on coho quickly more than made up for the higher permit payment. If you are looking at it mainly as a hobby though, a cheap efficient hand troller might put less pressure on you to do nothing but fish. Fishing is great, but its nice to be able to explore the country a bit. It is easy to get sucked into grinding away for weeks on end if you are trying to earn serious money. My wife fished with me last summer. During the king opener she drove while I worked the pit. I would get so into the grind I didn't even notice whales or other boats going by. She'd tell me about the great killer whale shows and I say, "what whales?" Its a tough job, but a great experience. If you have time to stop at all be sure to climb some mountains. As amazing as the waters of Southeast are, the real wilderness is uphill of the beach and there is no greater view in the world than that of the Fairweathers from the alpine on a sunny day.
Thanks Sandlance. Your advice on "stopping to smell the roses" is one I won't take lightly! Having lived in Iowa for the last 18 years, I never realized how lucky I was to grow up in the Pac NW. One of my favorite things to do as a kid was hike to the top of Mt. Pilchuck on a sunny day and look out to the Puget Sound, imagining a long ago time that the I-5 corridor didn't separate the Cascades from the sea!
-Travis
Crawfish
2016-04-30 15:20:22
I agree with Salty,
If you actually add up the true expenses salmon trolling is very expensive. A lot of guys are still running surplus 71's from World War Two . Why ? Because a new $60,000.00 main is not in the cards. I believe if you look at the true cost of equipment upgrades , insurance , gear , yearly haul outs ...... Just to keep a basic operation going a hundred grand a year doesn't go far. Want a new boat to replace the worn out one your on now well how about another $650,000.00 So dollar cost average that over 20 years with a crew insurance medical claim and you have just blown the budget of a hundred grand a year away. Here is the truth nobody wants to hear.
Salmon trolling is a dying declining industry. This is why the fleet's hay day was in the 60s and 70's . This is why the average age of a troller is eligible for senior discount coffee. This is why most guys are on boats from mid last century. Truth be told if your not making $175,000 to $200,000 a season your not earning wages.
Unless you want to live like a hermit or have dual income with secondary medical insurance and retirement income you are selling yourself short thinking otherwise. I have seen so many faces come and go thinking they were going to make it big. Reality sank in and it sucked to be them. Do guys get by on a hundred grand a year, sure. But they have wife's with jobs.
Now the question was power vs non power. Well if you decide non power better practice getting those twenty pound balls flying through the water because you gotta lot of fish to catch !
Sandlance
2016-05-01 17:02:28
I'm just going to say that I don't things are quite that bad. Trolling is a hard way to make a living, but its not like everything else is easy. I don't know how things were back in the old days (I was born in the late eighties), but good normal jobs are hard to come by nowadays too. I have a biology degree and tried to land a a decent biologist job for five years before I started trolling. All I could ever find were summer field jobs. They were fun, but certainly didn't pay any better than fishing. My wife has a masters and is an excellent worker but she hasn't been able to find a job that pays more than trolling either.
I admit that we have hurt our job opportunities by not being willing to move any where in the country and spend the next decade working for minimum wage. We think that living in Southeast is worth the reduced career opportunities. Unless you are going into neurosurgery or advanced computer science there aren't many careers where you can make it comfortably without a working spouse. Its just the way it is. Obviously there isn't a lot of money left over after expenses, but making 14 dollars an hour doesn't add up very fast either. When you work a normal job your lucky to get one full week off a year, which to my way of thinking is no way to live.
There are actually more young people getting into fishing than is commonly thought, and a lot of them make good livings. I think the biggest barrier to young people entering the industry isn't the income once you start fishing, its getting hold of the money to buy the limited entry permit. The graying of the fleet is a natural repercussion of a limited entry system that allows speculation and unreasonable prices on permits and IFQs. Fishing would be downright lucrative if we were allowed to participate in halibut or other fisheries.
To respond again to TC92's question I would suggest that you try and make your summers up here as stress free as possible so you have more time for adventures. Last summer I met a Canadian school teacher who had bought an old troller on Vancouver Island and converted her into a cruiser. He had spent the last four months visiting almost everywhere in Southeast from Icy Point to Boca de Quadra. I grew up in Southeast on the water and I was very jealous of all the places he had gotten to visit, and since he wasn't fishing he had the opportunity to get off the boat.
Crawfish
2016-05-02 16:38:53
Words to remember right here...
"I would suggest that you try and make your summers up here as stress free as possible so you have more time for adventures."
Very important indeed and glad you took the time to mention it. My last post may have seen like money is the largest contributing factor for trolling. I will be the first to say it is not. But you have to be able to afford to keep the boat going. Adventures though is definitely where it is at.
Kelper
2016-05-11 19:15:08
I am optimistic on trolling. I see it as a great opportunity for locals in SE to have a way to make income. We can fish almost year round, which takes the pressure off the summer season a bit. It might not be a way to completely support a family until coho prices come back, but it beats working for $15-20hr. I would really crunch a lot of numbers when deciding what boat to purchase.
Good luck.
Joel
FV Glory
capt.ron01
2016-06-20 04:13:48
will there is a lot of comments as to cast and gear type, but the thing is! if you want to try it with no experience at all, use what you have and see. i fished Oregon and California for fifteen yrs with 20' to 42 foot trollers and did ok. after i recovered from a health problem i started running a tender for trident seafood's for 18 teen yrs. do to cancer i had to quit. but i have built a new 29' boat to come to southeast and fish sports and my fish commercial hand troll. i would not go into much debt at first. you can move up latter. good luck and have fun.
capt.ron01
2016-06-21 17:35:58
This is capt rons son. he tried to post and it did not go through.
in his opinion after fishing for 40 some years. and running boats round alaska, is use what you have that dory is plenty the hand toll isn't all that horrible, and the gear not that expensive dont go into debt. your boat is small enough to not need a hand till you move up, so its you and your boat. Till you get your feet under you dont worry about a hand. the gear is easy and if you have any skill at all you can make it yourself. As for gurdies buy the best you can afford and set your back deck up carefully so its all in place and easy to use. Dont go heavy on the balls but remember that this also means you wont go really deep (you can go deep if you tweak things a bit, but in general; unless you are masochistic, you wont want to). You can either buy aluminum poles (waste of good money IMO), use wood poles or just use a long arm davit set up with springs . Get a black box and tune the boat spend the time to isolate the boat gear so you can control line voltage (I am sure you know all of this) just fish two lines at first instead of going full goat, you can always move up if trolling is a good fit for you. set the boat up like the fishermen in the 30's and do it carefully keep it cheap.
And again Do Not Go Into Debt over this. After several businesses including a troller this is the most important bit of all.
you will need to upgrade some gear and get a few electronics just to do the job and this is the expensive bit. Ron says in his opinion just set up a single on a long arm davit for the first year. then you will know if trolling is a good fit.
thanks for reading.
on behest of Capt.ron1.
Salty
2016-10-04 20:47:46
Wow, what a thoughtful thread. Enjoyed all the perspectives.
Once again, thanks everyone for their input and perspective. I've been stuck between a world of daydream/wonderlust and doing what is best for a family that depends on me and is the most important thing in my life! Once again my salmon trolling adventure is being put on hold for what i've decided is the best course for my family. I've made a ton of notes based on replies on this thread and everything else shared on this site. Once I do pull the trigger though, it is going to be a dream come true!
Anonymous
2018-12-09 17:03:17
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Have any of you ever seen anyone use jigging machines for power trolling? I imagine it could work for small boats with no rigging. I'm very curious. Thanks