Moving up. HT to power
JPBrenn
2013-09-08 21:49:09
I've been hand trolling for two seasons now, and think I do pretty good. I have work in town, but I love to be out on the water catching. I think the biggest thing holding me back is my boat. I dont have the capacity to make 3-4 day trips, so I stay close to home (area 8) plus it's an outboard gas engine, pretty inefficient. If I did a real season, starting late spring kings, chum THA's, and finish up with cohos could a guy make a living? I figure my overhead to be about 25k/season (assuming no major mechanical issues), could I make a profit? ALSO, looking at a lot of fine canadian vessels, a lot with freezers. I was thinking my ideal dimensions would be about 40' x 10' to 12' (we like to hunt so winter time it would be nice to load four wheelers). Does anyone know how much of a pain it is to get it admeasured and registered with AK? I heard it was fairly painless... Get it measured under 5tons, go to dmv get it registered, then license to fish. Sounds easy, but it can't be that easy... can it? Any input is greatly appreciated. Oh yea, my wife and I will be the crew, so theres no share to pay out, or insurance. Thanks for reading
Ad measure is painless, but it does cost $1000 - $2000. The ad measure person will have to go to your boat and take measurements. You pay em. Done.
Hmm... Yea I think a trip to DMV is required, if i recall correctly.
JPBrenn
2013-09-08 22:47:06
As long as the coast guard had nothing to do with the transfer I think its good, hahaha
akfish
2013-09-08 23:33:22
This was my first year Power Trolling and have a Canadian boat so will give my thoughts! Remember this was the best Coho year ever according to ADFG! Yes you can make some money. Enough to make a living? Depends on your standard of living! I dont think you could base your whole future on trolling, you would have to expand into other fisheries. I am lucky to have a good seasonal job to fall back on. Canadian boat worked out good for me the Ad Measurement was easy! Problem is it isnt easy now! I had a guy from Alaska do mine but now its not allowed! Found out this spring during my CG inspection that now the Dept of Shipping out of Houston does the Measurement not private people now. There was another guy in Seattle before as well. Basicly it is possible but not as easy as before.
akfish
2013-09-09 01:13:52
I also had to show my ad measurement certificate to the CG during inspection. Register the boat with the DMV then show proof of Ad Measurement to the CG
Kelper
2013-09-09 03:17:10
Any of you guys have any customs fees? Seemed that when I was looking into it, there was a few fees once you hit customs in Ketchikan that were a good chunk of change. You never know about the info you get though!
kaysea
2013-09-09 03:23:58
I went through the admeasure process about three years ago and by the time I was done it was $4000. I believe I paid $2000 for the guy to come to my boat to get all the measurements and than I paid another $2000 to get my certificate from the company back east. Pretty easy process but costly.
Regarding custom fees, I only had to pay U.S Customs in Ketchikan ($25) for a transportation fee that allows you to travel into the U.S. DMV was pretty easy as well. Just had to register it through them without incident.
Kelper
2013-09-09 03:47:49
Good to know.
This is a quote from some info I got on the subject. This part of an info letter I got from Rick Martin. This was on top of the survey, and the Ad Measurement. By the time I added up all the costs, I decided to buy in the USA. When I upgrade though, I'm happy to hear it isn't as costly as I thought it would be.
"Commercial boats brought into the U.S. have to utilize a Customs Broker to facilitate part of the paperwork. For boats coming up into Alaska, Perlman Stoler Customhouse is one company with familiarity in this process. You
can check with Ron Edelen at (907) 243-3313, ron@permanstoler.com. Their fees run about $1,500.00. The boat owner will also need the services of a “Vessel Agent”, such as North Pacific Maritime, Inc. in Ketchikan at
(907) 225-2200, operations@norpac1.com. They will assist in entering the boat into the “Automated Manifest System.” for a cost of about $700.00."
akfish
2013-09-09 04:04:37
Rick Martin did mine as well. Also the survey. I felt the biggest rip off was the customs agent. I filled out one form signed and they met me at the dock and introduced me to the customs agent then that was it.
JPBrenn
2013-09-09 04:14:10
Anyone have an idea what I could expect to make as a first year power troller? If i did, kings, chum, then coho. I'm a go getter, and love to catch fish.
kaysea
2013-09-09 04:25:15
Kelper,
You are correct. I forgot I had the vessel agent fee when I transferred the vessel out of Canada to the first port of call in the U.S. I try to forget the cost of doing business because it can add up sometimes!
Abundance
2013-09-09 05:10:46
I have to say that I don't see you making much in District 8. I like it there, and spend as much time as I can each year giving it my best, but I cannot afford to stay there after spring kings. The gillnetters have that place sewn tight. The spring kings are iffy at best, but nice when they come in, particularly before the gillnet openings. I have considered trying to make a go of it in that little stretch from Nemo Point to Anita Bay for July chums, but it is a tiny area. Maybe the Steamer Point or Ernest Sound areas? Chums are showing themselves to be highly volatile, with bust seasons followed by record seasons followed by seasons when they are all around but wont bite and so on. There aren't any cohos to speak of in Stikine Strait until late fall, and then coho retention is slammed shut. I am just saying that you might have to come out oceanways in the summer to make a living. You should be able to do nicely on 25k expenses, but some years are going to be tight and some will be very good indeed. If you have been handtrolling for the past few seasons, then you know how to catch fish well enough to survive. At least with fishing and hunting, the food bill is very low. I have heard old timers tell amazing stories about winter kings in Steamer Bay and Ernest Sound, and I occasional even start to believe them. Hope I see you around there this next spring!
Kelper
2013-09-10 00:08:48
That's really interesting. Is it a federal agency doing the inspection? Curious what the new fee structure is.
akfish
2013-09-10 00:25:56
Good question Kelper! Probably the influx of foreign boats lately. They might be trying to slow that down as well as make more money off of it. Bureau of Shipping is actually a private company that does the work for the Feds. You can be sure they wouldnt be trying to make it easier or cheaper.
JPBrenn
2013-09-10 03:30:59
Abundance, I saw you down there last spring. That was my whole reason to upgrade, I wanna fish where the fish are. Not where my boat lets me. I'm a general contractor so I can set up jobs in the winter. Trolling wouldn't be my only income, but it would be nice to be profitable. Is a gross of 60-75k from June through sept realistic?
Kelper
2013-09-10 03:45:11
Do the math. How many kings/cohos would you have to catch to make it happen? (or dogs or pinks) A calculator is your friend when it comes to any new business. I was told that permit values reflect yearly income. Not sure if it's net or gross.
BTW, this year was really good coho fishing. You can't count on that type of fishing every year.
JPBrenn
2013-09-10 04:16:45
62 coho, or 200 chum a day average unreasonable? I mean would that be considered poor fishing or good fishing?
Abundance
2013-09-10 05:14:14
I pretty much never stop to fish for less than 80 cohos a day, except during the late season. And that is unless I have no better reports. A standard day of ocean fishing is roughly 100 cohos. 200 chums a day average can be a tall order sometimes, but you probably should consider other options if you are catching less than 150 or so, depending on size and price. I would consider settling for a 100, if I could be sure of getting that every day without letup. Joel is right, the permit value tells you what the story is. A gross of 60-75k would place you in highliner status indeed. According to the Commercial Fisheries Entry Commission at [url=http://www.cfec.state.ak.us/bit/X_S15B.htm][url]http://www.cfec.state.ak.us/bit/X_S15B.htm, the average power troller grossed $35,379 last season. While that would seem laughably low compared to the average I expect to see after this record season, I wouldn't be surprised to see that come back down again next year. A person can easily spend days and hundreds of gallons of fuel getting from one coho bite to the other. and you have to add a day spent going to to the grounds to your weekly schedule, a day getting back in, a three day trip now has two nonefishing days tacked on it. A person can make a living a trolling, but I wouldn't call it a profitable business. Lots of fun though.
Kelper
2013-09-10 14:06:41
Good post Garrett.
The ADFG website has a ton of info on average catch rates, sizes, prices, etc. You can pretty much look at winter, spring, and summer fisheries and see what's realistic. Remember too that you'll have a learning curve, and you probably will be average, or below average for the first few seasons.
Salty
2013-09-10 17:52:29
I have a 38 foot fiberglass troller with a John Deere engine. My expenses trolling without a permit or boat payment, or any loan interest deductions amount to nearly $100,000 per year. I troll pretty much year around so even with a fuel efficient engine burning about a gallon an hour fuel and oil comes to around $10,000. My boat was recently surveyed for market value of $155,000. I figure at least 10% of the boat value for maintenance and another 10% for improvements each year. So, right there, I am looking at $40,000 before I even start to figure crew, taxes, dues, travel, gear, insurance, accounting, moorage, etc.
Quite frankly, I have no idea how trollers grossing the average of $35,000 can make it if that is there only income. Fortunately, most trollers I know have other sources of income, IFQ's, other fisheries, other jobs, retirement or dividend income, or a spouse with income. Without my wife's teacher retirement and health care plan I would have been out of trolling many years ago.
Granted, most trollers have done fairly well this year, but it is the first good year in quite a while fleet wide. Weather, price, coho abundance, and good chum fishing in Icy Straits and Sitka (which is the first time both of those have been good in the same season) all contributed. Unfortunately, the monumental error in estimating Chinook abundance cost SE trollers millions of dollars.
So, here is my answer as to whether you can make any money trolling. The only reason to troll salmon in SE Alaska is because you can't seem to enjoy life without going trolling. With few exceptions the SE troll fishery is not about the money. It is about the love of working on your boat, getting out into the exquisite wilderness of SE Alaska, anchoring in beautiful coves and bays, figuring out the right lure, working a school of fish or an edge, producing one of the best foods on earth, and if you are really lucky, sharing it with great friends or family.
I have been trolling since 1950 and running my own operations since 1974. Trolling has been my primary occupation and income generator since 1978. I have had big seasons, and marginal ones. Even though I have been in the top quartile for troll gross for over 25 years now I have never made enough to invest, set up a meaningful retirement plan, or save any money. I have managed to make enough to pay my crew well, pay off my boat and permit, and keep my boat in great shape with annual improvements. I have also spent a fortune on gear. Which I will be selling off beginning this winter.
So, if you want to make money fishing Salmon in SE Alaska I recommend you buy a net. If you have another source of income, love boat work, love motoring around SE Alaska, and are obsessed by the challenge of getting a salmon to bite, then go trolling.
Abundance
2013-09-10 19:16:14
100k a year in boat expenses!? I have to say, I have a hard time accepting that. My fuel expenses are much higher than yours, and I spend tens of thousands each winter on boat work, not to mention moorage and my permit payments. I would calculate my expenses at around 40k per year. Combined with some shrimp money, that gives me enough to make a decent vacation someplace and purchase a few personal luxuries. I could survive on just trolling, but I am single and like to eat free fish and venison, and can do basically all the repair and upgrade boatwork by myself, and it would still be a tight squeeze. The people I know trying to make a living on just crabbing or just longlining or just diving are running into such problems as well. Its hard for a small boat operation to make any money on just one fishery.
Salty
2013-09-11 00:50:56
Garrett, I know, it amazes me too, but that is what is comes to nearly every year.
Last year after I finished fishing we had to put in a new exhaust system, a new water heater, and I had all my hoses and belts replaced on the engine. Five figures for just those three things.
This fall the autopilot I bought in 1988 gets replaced with a new one and a new compass system. During this summer season I put in two new computers, had the hydraulics rebuilt, installed a new computer program, replaced the monitor in the pit, rebuilt an aluminum bow pole, replaced the front window, and had three sounders rebuilt because some short kept blowing them up during the season. As you know, it never ends.
Another thing adding to my expenses is I usually have two crew members in addition to myself from mid June until September. I am not complaining, I love my boat, enjoy the crew, love SE Alaska, and the challenge of getting salmon to bite. It does not make me a lot of money after expenses is the personal perspective I am communicating.
Abundance
2013-09-12 03:54:55
I get it. I dont really see how a person could make enough to do all the boatwork that can be done. I acually had a seiner freind marvel over how little stress and expenses we had, compared to his million dollar season. He doesnt live much more extravagantly than me, when all is said and done. Anyway, I guess the point is, dont get big dreams of money from trolling. Getting big dreams of fish bites, bear and deer swimming island to island, and all around adventure and freedom, now thats more like it.
If you just want to be out catching fish and making money, you don't have to move up to a power troller. Contrary to what most of the forum regulars believe, it is possible to make handtrolling pay. You would have to get a different boat, since outboard vessels tend to use up all their profits on fuel and motor replacement. But not a 40 footer, just a small diesel powered troller. You don't need the capacity for 5 day trips; there are still places to fish where you can sell more often. I like to start in District 8, head out to the "Hole in the Wall" by Noyes I in July, and then finish in Icy Strait after the closure. In the last 16 years, since I settled on this pattern, I've sold from $10K to $30K worth of salmon per summer ($21.6K avg.) while spending less than $7K on average per year doing it. And I am not going out in the ocean where even bigger catches are could be made.
By remaining a HT boat you will never make as much as a power troller, but you can keep a higher percent of your gross because your expenses will be so much less.
Salty
2013-09-21 17:02:24
Great post jk3. I am envious. My fuel bill, and I burn less than a gallon an hour over the year, is more than 7K.
My boat is hauled out today, the zincs cost over $300.00. The new transducer was nearly $1,000. A gallon of copper paint was over $100.00. Then there were the two guys working on the rudder and bottom of the boat for two days at $80.00 or so per hour. I hired two young people for $100 apiece to help scrape barnacles, and scrub down the hull. The cost of maintenance and improvement for this haul out alone will be well over $3,000.
But, having hand trolled from 74-81, I remember the whole different dimension of both costs and expectations. I am looking forward to going out by myself this winter season for a few hours and hopefully a few winter kings per day. Low expectations, low expenses, much joy.
The quartile table gives you a better idea of averages ( http://www.cfec.state.ak.us/quartile/X_S15B.HTM ). But even this always seems low to me. It seems like there should be more than 70 boats making the top earnings. How do freezer boats factor into the averages? About how many freezer boats are in the fleet? I know plenty of ice boats that make more than the top quarter average.
Kelper
2013-09-21 19:43:21
How do they even figure out those quarterlies? From fish tickets turned into the ADFG? I bet if the "truth" came out on what guys gross, the PT permits would be worth a lot more than they are.
49 freezer boats in the fleet, last I heard.
Salty
2013-09-23 02:54:57
Drew and Kelper,
Under further analysis I am not always in the top quartile as represented by the charts. As usual, I think I am doing better than I am.
Freezer boats report their fish price as dock price to ADF&G.
Meaning they report the ice price?
Is that what they pay their 3% on as well?
akfish
2013-09-24 00:05:39
What he is refering to I believe is most freezer boats sell to the COOP or Triad and in one case only get 70% of dock price and the other case nothing upon delivery I could be way off but just guessing.
That's right Drew. They report dock price for tax purposes. They don't have to pay tax on value added so the gross that CFEC calculates is a lot lower. So that probabably lowers you even further Salty.
Salty
2013-09-25 01:13:50
Unfortunately this is not the limbo where the lower you go the better you do. I don't think you can go much lower than fishing chums and pinks during the best king and coho summer in 19 years.
kjwelder
2013-09-28 03:05:37
RIP Garrett...:-(
My 2 cent:
Define success
Have a back up plan
Be flexible
Hope for the best, prepare for the worst
Have fun