Questions for you trollers
Seinerman
2012-05-21 20:49:22
I have a 48' Delta that has two fish holds, the main hold packs about 50,000 lbs of pinks and the back hold packs about 18,000 lbs. I began cod jigging this past winter, and I'm doing the math - $0.40 for bled and iced, or $2.40 for H&G frozen. I know the recovery rate is 48% for H&G cod, so basically a 5 lb cod is either worth $2.00 or $5.76, depending on whether it is bled and iced or H&G frozen. Here's my questions: Assuming I only use the main fish hold and I can hold 45,000 lbs of chums or cohos in RSW, how many pounds of H&G Frozen chum or coho would I be able to hold? I'm trying to estimate a rough conversion of how many pounds of frozen cod I could hold. I already have a 30 kw generator onboard, can I get set up with a freezer system for $50,000 or less? And does anyone know where I can buy either the plans to make or already made neutral buoyancy side planers? Thanks in advance, and good luck fishing this summer!
Abundance
2012-05-23 02:52:53
Sorry if it seems that we are ignoring you, but these are the sort of questions that we as a fleet are still trying to answer. Freezing large quantities of pinks and chums has never been tried by an american troller that i know of, and there are only a handfull of freezer trollers period. It sounds like some people might be trying it this year though. These are uncharted waters. I guess you are going to have to be an explorer and find out the hard way. I hope you catch some this season!
Seinerman
2012-05-23 16:27:46
Hi, Abundance! Thanks for your response. I definitely get the feeling I'm charting new waters here, but I think it will be well worth it - look what the freezer/longline fleet have done out west - a high value, stable fishery. I think the cod jig fishery has the same potential. I've been creeping the board here for a little while now, and since I don't know anything about commercial trolling, I'm trying to learn how you guys are using the trolling poles and your gurdy systems and trying to incorporate your efficiencies into the jig fishery. I've picked up some pretty good stuff here. One question I have regarding using the poles - it looks like the line or wire from the gurdy runs through a grommet on a line from the trolling pole, then you use something to hold the wire from sliding through the grommet so the line trails off the end of the pole. What do you use to keep the wire from slipping through the grommet? I was thinking of attaching a scotty troll release above the grommet that I could clip onto the wire (we use spectra).
Thanks again for your response. I just figured everyone was out fishing! Good luck this summer!
Abundance
2012-05-23 17:01:23
I know what you mean by the pontential in frozen cod. Down here in southeast, we have massive untapped resources of midwater rockfish, pacific cod and pollock. These fish are currently treated like a plague, when they could be a blessing. I have been seriously considering getting a jigging machine and freezing myself. Most of us, including me, are out fishing, but I have good cell range and lots more spare time than I am happy about. I have personally never used the plastic donuts, preferring the old fashioned big metal spring loaded clamps that I can simply clip on and off. My understanding is that you simply tie something bigger than your doughnuts hole to the wire, then the wire cannot slip through. You can call about any fishery supply store in southeast and purchase one to examine. I appreciate your interest. A guy cannot know to much about different fisheries and methods. Are you in southeast?
Abundance
2012-05-23 17:12:17
Heres a picture of what I use. I hope it helps.
Seinerman
2012-05-23 22:17:58
Thanks! That really helps. I had originally envisioned a pulley system at the end of my stabilizer poles, but I can see how a fixed line of proper length would be far more efficient. I like the clamp idea, less components to mess with, since I'm a firm believer in the KISS method. One question on trolling poles, it seems to me that you guys are using extensions on your stabilizer poles for your fishing gear. Are those removable? I use my fish when I'm jigging (really helps smooth the roll on my boat), and I'm concerned that if I run a line right off my existing pole that I could get into some tangle issues. I anchor when I jig, and often the wind and tide are going different directions, making it difficult to avoid tangles unless you can really spread out the rigs. I've been thinking about how to extend the poles so my jig gear doesn't tangle with the stabie fish, but I would like to remove them for seine season.
I live on the Kenai Peninsula, but I seine in Prince William Sound, fished tanners in Chignik, and jigged in Kodiak this year.
Thanks again for your interest.
Greg
Abundance
2012-05-24 01:35:32
Iv'e never removed my extensions, but reasonably, what you put in you should be able to take out. Adding extensions should be pretty basic. I would just get the next size smaller aluminum pipe, insert it into your existing pole and bolt it through. Its not taking any weight from your stabies, so it doesnt have to be very strong. Then rig ropes from the tip of the extension to the bow and stern, so that you can eliminate the extra swing from your new length of pole. For my 50 foot boat, I run 38 foot poles, but they should be longer. I have had my stabies get caught in my wire before, usually dragged back by a kelp ball. I know what you mean about the tide. The worst is the tide rips, with a deep undertow. Sometimes you will stand there diliberating whether to cut thousands of dollars worth of gear off and start fresh, or spend the rest of the day painstakingly untangling it. It takes some seriously bad tide to do that though.
Seinerman
2012-05-25 17:13:57
Thanks, Garrett. My stabie poles are capped on the end, so I'm looking at a clamping system and adding twenty feet on my poles. Do you guys ever add sideplaners to your outside rigs? I'm trying to design something that I can send down near the bottom and have it side plane away from the boat on each side. Thanks, Greg.
Abundance
2012-05-25 20:27:21
I never have, nor has anybody else that I know of. For us, the poles are effective enough at keeping our lines separated that a sideplaner such as you describe would be an unnecesary extra thing to hassle with. I have to wonder, since your boat would pointed by the wind, with no forward momentum, if they would do much good? And wouldnt a bad crosstide just have more to grab and drag underneath your boat? If you had a good current coming from the same direction as the wind, I can see them working well though. I am probably just envisioning something different then you are.
Seinerman
2012-05-26 18:17:53
Thanks, Garrett. You are correct, using a sideplaner would only work on calm days or if the wind were going the same direction as the tide. Off some of the capes, the current rips at 2-3 kts. When jigging, you are required to have your hooks above the weight, but it is legal to come off the main line with a string of hooks, as long as they are in the water column. Since the cod are typically near the bottom, I want to put the sideplaner on the end of my string of hooks to hold some tension on the line so it doesn't tangle when a few cod start twisting around. Since the strings will be about 25-30 feet long, I envisioned placing one on each stabie and one off the stern (with a lighter weight ) when the conditions are right to prevent tangles. I don't know if any of this will work, but I figured that you trollers would recognize tangling problems or other issues that I won't, simply because you guys are used to dragging lots of lines in all kinds of conditions. I appreciate all the input.
Abundance
2012-05-26 19:15:40
Now I see a little more of what you are getting at. I was thinking a large piece of metel trying to shear off away from the boat. A smaller water grabber to pull back a string (lets call this horizontal length of lures a string, as opposed to the vertical weighted line). That should be interesting, but effective. My mind says that a simple plate made of negative buoyancy plastic attached to the ends of the string would do it in anything but a slack tide, but that can be some of the best fishing. Maybe have your string run along a thin metal rod? I saw people use something like that for jigging perch in the Great Lakes, but nowere this scale.
Seinerman
2012-05-26 20:13:24
My son is an engineer, and he came on board for a couple of days to try and find some efficiencies for me. He suggested something like a metal rod, and we drew out a few prototypes. One obstacle is simply the length involved and the need for some flexibility to haul the fish over the rail and reset. I'll have to see if I can find some video on youtube re: perch fishing. Thanks for the tip.
Abundance
2012-05-26 20:57:47
What I saw looked homemade, and I didnt get a close look. Just the same, it stuck with me. A guy can pick up all sorts of neat ideas if he pays attention. Very heavy guage copper wire would be both stiff and flexible, but maybe too flexible. Then again you are just relying on water flow to keep it straight right now. Could your string just use that as an assistance?
Salty
2012-05-29 04:07:29
Seinerman,
I wonder if the cod would hit the gear trolling through the schools or along the edge. Trolling gives you so much more control of the boat etc. than jigging. I grew up jigging halibut in SE by trolling off the blocks through the holes or along the banks. In the 80's and 90's I spent quite a bit of time dinglebar trolling for ling cod. My thinking is that if the cod are as thick as you say then the way to really get them is by trolling them, either off the blocks or off the poles.
Is there a limit on the number of lines? Do the cod clatter up the gear from the bottom? The advantage to trolling is that you have control of the boat and can work the edge or the spot. The problem is that unless your boat is rigged for trolling you dont have a cockpit, gurdies, etc. Are the jigging regulations written such that you could "troll" the cod? How much do the cod weigh? Do they bite all day or just on the flood, ebb, or slack water?
The few videos I have seen of the Alaska jigging operations literally made me sick at how un-ergonomic the operations looked to this troller who is constantly working at making handling thousands of pounds of salmon a day as ergonomic as possible. For example, being anchored in a big swell with a cross tide and wind, as opposed to being able to figure out how to work the "spot" or "edge" under power in a way that minimizes the discomfort would be important to me.
Has anyone taken a troller up there and "jigged" with hydraulic troll gurdies?
Abundance
2012-05-29 17:27:13
I know that here in southeast you arent allowed to use power gurdies for jig fisheries, but you can use hand gurdies. Maybe we should petition for a change in the regulationsl, but I think they dont want to make it easy for trollers to poach kings on the ocean in May/June and say they were fishing black rockfish. You are allowed to keep your cod and rockfish while salmon trolling though. I agree that we already have our troll gear and should be allowed to fish for other species than salmon using the techniques that we are comfortable eith. I know that I would consider trolling some jig gear, just because that is the way I automatically want to fish. I would suspect that the professional jiggers know what they are doing though, and reinventing they fishery might be overdoing it. You never know though, you get fishermen from different disciplines working on a project, something interesting is bound to happen.
Seinerman
2012-05-30 00:48:31
Seinerman,
I wonder if the cod would hit the gear trolling through the schools or along the edge. Trolling gives you so much more control of the boat etc. than jigging. I grew up jigging halibut in SE by trolling off the blocks through the holes or along the banks. In the 80's and 90's I spent quite a bit of time dinglebar trolling for ling cod. My thinking is that if the cod are as thick as you say then the way to really get them is by trolling them, either off the blocks or off the poles.
Is there a limit on the number of lines? Do the cod clatter up the gear from the bottom? The advantage to trolling is that you have control of the boat and can work the edge or the spot. The problem is that unless your boat is rigged for trolling you dont have a cockpit, gurdies, etc. Are the jigging regulations written such that you could "troll" the cod? How much do the cod weigh? Do they bite all day or just on the flood, ebb, or slack water?
The few videos I have seen of the Alaska jigging operations literally made me sick at how un-ergonomic the operations looked to this troller who is constantly working at making handling thousands of pounds of salmon a day as ergonomic as possible. For example, being anchored in a big swell with a cross tide and wind, as opposed to being able to figure out how to work the "spot" or "edge" under power in a way that minimizes the discomfort would be important to me.
Has anyone taken a troller up there and "jigged" with hydraulic troll gurdies?
Thanks for your interest. You can troll with jig gear. Most guys anchor, some drift, but I've never seen anyone trolling. Most of the time the cod are pretty deep, 15-65 fathoms, with most of the fishing in the 40-50 fathom range. The cod do clatter up the line, especially pre-spawn when they are densely schooled, and most guys have their hooks right on the mainline above the weight. A couple of guys have been experimenting with horizontal hook arrangements. I think you have to be ready to fish with either gear, depending on conditions. You are allowed 5 machines with up to 30 hooks per machine. Almost nobody runs over 4 machines, and most smaller boats run 2-3. Two problems occur. First, the fish hit so hard and fast when you are in them, that it is difficult to keep up with the machines. Second, when the wind and tide are doing the funky chicken, the lines tangle (unless you have a way to spread them out - stabies or planers if there is current. I've seen a couple of old wooden trollers that are full-time, year round jig boats, and I don't think they are using any of the trolling gear to jig.
The cod range from 3-40lbs, most of the average is in the 6-10lb range. They seem to bite all day, if you are on them, but they will go off the bite if another boat cuts your stern of sounds around you, I think they spook from vibrations.
I totally agree that this is the most un-ergonomic fishery around (in its current form). This is probably because most of the guys are new fishermen who have smaller boats and no experience (or funding) to improve their situation. Others are just seiners who put on jig machines for something to do in the off season. A couple of guys are experimenting with trays and other ways to make it easier. Other guys just think they should keep it simple and pure. I like to innovate. That is why I'm asking all these stupid questions to you troller types - I want to learn from you guys and cross-train with the good stuff!
I've thought about trolling under power, but I'm not really set up for that, and I think it would complicate things when the bite is on to have to drive a boat at the same time I'm trying to fish. Usually, there is a nice bit of current to work with, although the wind can definitely spoil plans to use the current to an advantage.
salmon4u
2012-05-30 00:52:42
I don't see why it shouldn't be allowed to catch cod trolling. I also don't see why trollers aren't allowed to fish salmon north of Cape Suckling either, other than bs regulations
Seinerman
2012-05-30 00:58:45
You can troll for p-cod. As for west of Cape Suckling, the feds have just updated the salmon fmp and today is the last day of the comment period, so you might want to get your two cents in. If you go to the NMFS website, you can get the link for an online comment. If the Secretary approves the plan, you will likely never fish west of the Cape. Ever. Unless you become a sporty, then you can do whatever you want.
salmon4u
2012-05-30 01:02:28
Thanks, I'll go and try to put in my 2 cents... "we're the government, and we're here to help you" right?... NOT
salmon4u
2012-05-30 02:35:19
Unfairly limiting Alaskan statewide salmon trolling permits to fish only from the Canadian border to Cape Suckling is a political move initiated and perpetuated in the special interest of other gear groups. Trollers are small operations that are efficient at targeting specific species unlike the vessels that are now allowed to operate west of Cape Suckling that have large by-catch wastage, decimating prime fisheries. Permitting smaller salmon troll vessels in statewide waters would create jobs, encourage small business, and efficiently use existing salmon resources. America would greatly benefit from allowing their entrepreneurs to flourish.
Abundance
2012-05-30 03:14:01
I very much agree with you, but I dont think that this is relavant to this discussion. I am sure that there are several threads in fishing politics that have already been begun on this subject. Right now, we are talking about how to use our trolling skills, and adapt our trolling gear, to do something other than fish salmon. The subject of statewide trolling, while something that we all care about, just isnt what this discussion is about. By the way, sienerman Greg, I have very much enjoyed this discussion. Its helped give me something to ponder over fishing in these long, kind of boring spring days. Even when I am catching a few fish, I am now visualizing how your gear looks and how it acts in the water. I may have to get a set of jigging machines to play with. The last time I checked, they were a lot cheaper than power troll gurdies. I hope that we have provided a little bit of insight, although I am sure that I learned far more from you than you could have learned from me.
Seinerman
2012-05-30 06:35:30
salmon4u -This should probably be on the politics forum, but that fmp was hammered through in record time, with total disregard to comments and testimony made by stakeholders. This was done to remove federal oversight from state salmon management, thereby opening the door to unlimited urban dipnet harvest for personal use on the copper, kenai, and kasilof rivers. I agree, troll permits should go back to being statewide - outside three miles and excluding the traditional gillnet areas in Cook Inlet, Copper River Delta, and False Pass. A while ago, the Kodiak seiners tried to get a troll/seine permit to troll cohos and chinooks instead of trying to net them. I think Kathy Hanson from your neck of the woods would know much more about what is going on with the fmp. All I know is that the feds acted in record time on this, pushing the sportfish/AOC/Bob Penney agenda. Pretty sickening if you ask me. Upper Cook Inlet is going the way of the west coast salmon stocks.
Abundance - I've really enjoyed the discussion here, and with what has been posted, plus some pms from some of the other trollers, i've come up with a pretty good plan. I've got some video editing to do, but I'll be happy to post some jig video on the video thread when I get it done. Thanks for all your input, it is GREATLY appreciated!
Greg