Building The Menu

sean_h_5

2010-05-19 19:40:47

Hello all.

Just got back from a couple day hand-troll expedition south of Ketchikan carrying far from a full half-tote. I came back with one question that I was really pondering and is thus responsible for this post. How do power/hand trollers, build their gear up and down the wires. Im sure the tactics change depending on the targeted species, but I'm most interested in what a possible line would look like in the spring troll fishery- which is mostly scratching for kings. Salty has talked before about fishing terminal areas, (thanks a lot salty) saying that you should build your gear by using the same rig up and down the wire, creating an opportunity for them to really clatter. (makes sense) Fishing in May however, the kings are not schooled up like they are in June and thus you are scratching, catching fish here and there. (or not at all, like me). I have been dragging 5 spreads on each wire and on average I am running 20 fathoms. I have 2 fathom marked wire and I usually drag the gear on the deepest marks. (so on the 20, 18, 16, 14, and 12 fathom mark) Sometimes I will throw a spoon up higher if I'm marking bait higher than my gear. Here are my questions. Does running 5 spreads on each wire make sense? (more, less, variable?) Do you always fish spoons off both leads (sometimes a plug on a long leader) or do you sometimes fish a flasher off the lead? I have heard that you can easily clutter your menu up with too many flashers and spook most interested kings. So how many flashers would be appropriate? (2 on each wire? more or less?) Do you always troll your leads at the same depth? When your building your gear, do you want to stay away from having flashers at the same depths? If so, then do you try to stagger them, for example on one wire run a flasher at 18 and 14, and on the other wire run a flasher at 16 and 12. And run spoons in between.

I have been fishing long enough that I know that there are so many variables to this business that nothing is concrete, however, I have not talked to many trollers about this topic and know little about what everybody else does. I'm looking for general rules that are known by most everyone in the fleet (other than me) if they exist.

I just turned 21 and I plan to troll in SE untill I die. I just thought I would start my 3rd season by laying down my pride and asking a few questions. It can't hurt.

Good fishing to all.

Sean

yak2you2

2010-05-20 03:39:02

Do lots of experimenting, and keep detailed logs of what you learn. With exception to the obvious stuff, there isn't a right way and a wrong way to troll. From what I'm hearing it sounds like fishing has gotten sort of spotty again, it's closed on my end, but even the charter guys are having a hard time right now. So, odds are your under estimating yourself, can't catch what isn't there. The golden rule is; put your time in, and keep your line in.

With respect to how you load up a line, sometimes spreading your gear out, running uniform length leaders or colors etc. seems to help, but that doesn't mean that running it differently doesn't work. I run 9ft. stops on my wire, I usually fill it up, and my spoons are on different length leaders than my flashers. Some guys laugh at this and say, "you'll never catch kings with your gear all crowded together like that." I've proven them worng, time and time again. At times, when the bites on, I've gotten some good clatters this way. Other times when the fish are spread out, I'll spread the gear out. I run 9 ft. leaders on my spoons, and 3 fm. leaders on my flashers. Usually I run a spoon on the ball, flasher above it, 2 spoons above that, another flasher, and so on, right up to the doughnut. I've caught kings on the doughnut spoon before. I have fished the entire winter season some years, with my gear crowded together, and done quite well. My reason for different lengths and staggering is simple, it keeps them from tangling when I get fish on and I'm filling out every stop. I believe the theory of having the same length gear too, it makes sense. You have 2 wires, run one, one way, and the other another way, and see if it makes a difference. Or, do it all one way one day, then switch the next. Try running different colored flashers, different hootchies, and different spoons. As I've said before, everyone was looking for a trick when they discovered it.

I'll run a flasher or a plug on the ball once in a while, but only if I'm certain I'm not going to bump bottom, a spoon is all I'm willing to lose. As a hand cranker, your probably not running much more than 25-30 lb. balls, which means you won't get down very deep running anymore than 3 flashers a side. A lot of the time the current is so bad I can't run anymore than 2 and get down to where I want to be.

Try dressing up your lures creatively, try different smells, change up your speed and throw in some curves on your tack,and if it looks like the boat nearby is catching more than you, try your binoculars. Most important though, is remembering what works under what conditions, so write it down.

Good fishin'

yak2you2

2010-05-20 13:09:33

Was there any other boats around you? how did you do compared to them? Keep talking around on the docks, a lot of guys are willing to share more info in person. Don't forget your Herring and your green stuff.

martie55

2010-05-20 17:58:18

This is something I have always been curious about myself. I run 9 ft stops also with 1 fathom spoons and two fathom flashers. I have to alternate for the same reasons yak does, tangles. I always keep my ball the same depth but I'll alternate the sides by one stop, so I don't have flashers or baits at the same depth. I may be way off, but it just makes sense to me to get a scent out at different levels.



Speaking of bait, I still have yet to find a good herring rig up that I like. Even with the Maah's clips, I still get the "propeller" herring spin if my leader is too long. The only way I've found to combat this is to make my leader so small (20-24") that the flasher just jerks the bait around, leaving the herring no chance to get the dreaded "propeller" spin. Any suggestions on the Maah's clips and towing a herring? I've read all the other threads.

Salty

2010-05-20 18:28:19

Luhr Jensen used to have a nice handout on how to rig your gear for kings and another for coho.



I think Yak has it exactly right in keeping your gear, whatever the setup or lures, in the water. Keep tinkering, keep communicating, and "monitor and adjust".



I have been rigging troll gear since I was about three years old. I am 60 now. I just changed the way I salt herring, set up my herring hooks, and thread herring last trip. I did not fish herring from 1982 to 2002 and now fishing herring is a big part of my tool kit. The point is to always keep trying to improve.



This year I am learning how to fish bow poles which really adds to the challenge.



I handtrolled for 6 years and have some experience with handtrolling. I have said it many times and will say it again. You are allowed to fish four rods handtrolling. They should be a big part of your tool kit, particularly in the Spring. In May and June the big kings move into the shallows and fishing 90 feet or less with rods will often produce more than two wires. Learn how to roll a whole herring, fish cut plugs, and work the kelp beds. It was closed to us but I anchored in a place this week where the kings were working the feed in 2-6 fathoms of water. Every king I have caught since May 1 has come at 15 fathoms or less.



On setting gear on your wires. I have fished up to fifty spreads a line, 200 spreads in the water. I have had clatters of 1,000 pounds of salmon at a time. If I know anything, then I know something about production trolling. It is my opinion that the vast majority of the troll fleet fishes too much gear per line too much of the time.



Of course all this should be prefaced by the fact that I can't seem to catch anymore so all this is just musings by a has been or never was.



I just talked to a local genuine highliner this week who for some reason, probably because of all my fisheries political work, or perhaps because he is a really good person, decided to give me some tips. Most of these will remain confidential but one tip that is germane to this discussion was that he does not crowd his gear closer than 6 fathoms between spreads when king fishing.



I fished three spreads per line this week, and while I did not catch much I felt it was more productive than if I had 6 per line.



A few years ago I fished the whole chum season with no more than 11 spreads per line because Sarah and I were trying to fish together. We did not have a gear setter yet and setting more than 11 spreads a time wore her out. It changed my whole approach to chum trolling and I learned a great deal about targeting the schools, how the chums load the gear, etc. that I would never have learned if I had always run 25-40 spreads a line.



One of my best coho seasons ever was put in running from 4-10 spreads a line. I put in over 600 chums one day running 6 spreads a line. We figured we averaged 4 chums a line that day and ran 150 wires for them in 40 fathoms of water. I figured out a number of years ago that I don't like pulling empty leaders, it slows you down, tires you out, and often means you are dragging gear that is unlikely to produce.



On the other hand I know some of the top producers this spring were running 48 spreads for kings.



So, scratching kings.



Lead spoon on the lead with a 10 foot leader.



1.5 fathoms up, a four fathom leader to your favorite flasher. (Unless you are running bow poles, then you have a shorter leader.)



4.5 fathoms up long spoon or plug leader.



4.5 fathoms up another flasher leader. Repeat as desired.



The second year I power trolled I ended up fishing the same area in May and June as an older guy with a beautiful wood freezer boat. He only fished 20 fathoms and he always ran the same set up.



Lead spoon and then four flashers with bait.



I thought I was doing pretty well comparatively, and I was to my partners. Then I found out that during the same period of time the older guy had doubled my production.



The best troller I know told me that he had been advised that if he put his gear in before the sun came up and pulled it after it went down every day of the season then he would "make it".



The truth is that there are an infinite variety of techniques and lures to produce troll salmon. The problem with us old guys is that we have so much experience with what works and doesn't work that we mostly have become confused or rigid. Try to keep your mind open and keep tinkering. One thing I have learned from communicating with some of the top producers is that someone has found them and found out what they are hitting almost every day.

martie55

2010-05-20 21:19:14

Is using a treble hook for bait a big no-no?

Hotwire

2010-05-20 22:08:36

Great post....



I have an additional question regarding king spreads.



Is it important to keep flasher and spoon spreads the same length, excluding the lead spoon?

yak2you2

2010-05-21 03:38:26

To me there are a couple of distictly different types of trolling, within trolling. If your fishing deep, why not spread out your gear? I'm sure it does make it fish better, I do. But if your fishing for kings up on the beach, or rockpiles in 60 ft. or less, where I happen to be a lot, by the way, there's just not a lot of room to spread out. Doesn't make sense to run 2 spreads on 60 ft. of wire, in most cases to me. My thinking is, when the kings move up on top, their ready to eat, and a lot of their prior inhibitions have gone away, and they can, and have clattered on tightly bunched gear. I've had 6 spreads of gear spread out every 9 ft. per side on 54 ft. of wire, fishing in 60 ft. of water, for a total of 12 hooks, catch 7 or 8 kings at once,,,, many times. My thinking is I'm trying to look like a school of bait fish with my bunched up gear, all I can say is, it does work at times, so don't rule it out entirely.

Other times when your looking for solitary fish, or fish that are feeling a little more finicky, having your gear spread out, is no doubt the way to go, it's up to you to know the difference.

There are times when rods will lay waste to everything else, and it is an important tool for handtrollers to have in their arsenal no doubt about it. Rolling Herring is a form of art, have someone who knows exactly what their doing show you how, or you'll never experience anything more frustrating.

I too have had troubles getting my cable baiters to stop windmilling, even with the tails cut off, to the point that I have stopped using them, and gone back to either easy baiters or threading. I dearly wish someone had a tip that would make them work right.

I experimented with treble hooks every which way imaginable, and finally came to the conclusion that I, personally, loose to much fish with them, so I threw all mine over, a long time ago. There are a lot of guys who feel differently about this, and I will say that they seem to do just fine. Personal choice I guess.

Again, it makes sense to me to have uniform length leaders if your spreading your gear out, I plan on doing it that way from now on, But if your fishing your gear bunched up, your asking for trouble if you don't stagger it. I've lost fish because of tangle ups.

For those of us fishing with outboards, you will eventually have fish try to swim over and around your lower units. The best thing to do is try to avoid it by seeing where the leader is trailing to on the way up. If it's pointing to your engines try to let the fish back down until it trails out away from the boat then bring him in quickly. I leave my big motor down and steer with it like a rudder. I've had fish get wrapped around it and are now trailing behind. My recipe for this is to dipnet the fish, so I don't lose him, tie myself off, tilt up the motor, then climb out on my engine mount and free him and the gear. This is a calm water procedure, if this happens on a rough day, you probably are going lose this fish.

Salty

2010-05-21 04:47:55

Wow, good post Yak. You actually use 1.5 fathom spread on your king lures? Cool that you can make that work.

On the leaders. Here is what I do now. I have my spoon end up the same distance from the wire as my hootchie or bait behind the flasher.



I used to have quite a variation. I always ran spoons on a two fathom leader for both kings and coho. Then I had my flashers on four fathom leaders. Then I had 7-10 fathom plug leaders. I think I counted my spools of leaders the other day. With the lead spoon leaders @ 10 feet, the chum leaders @ __ feet, two different coho leader lengths, etc. it all added up to a confusing mess.



Now I have different leader lengths for the mains and the bows but all the lures on a line, except for the lead spoon, end up the same distance from the wire. Of course the wire curves from the surface to the lead so the gear does not end up in a straight up and down plane.



So does this clarify why some of us are confused?

yak2you2

2010-05-21 06:17:11

Yes sir, fm. and a half stops, and I've filled it out more often than I spread it out. After a while you get to where you can tell if it's spooking them. If I have a feeling there's fish around but their not biting me, or I get a tell tale sign like only my flashers or plugs are working, it usually clues me in that their intimidated by all the gear, and I may go thin it out.

I like running super long leaders on my plugs. My thought is, this last lone piece of gear trailing all by it's self must look like a cripple, trying to catch up with the school. Exactly the kind of thing that a predator like a king salmon is looking for.

Unless I'm fighting to get down deep, I always fill out my stops for cohos.

I am no highliner by a long shot, but I would call myself an above average hand troller. What I do, works for me, and thats what new guys have to look at, finding a system that works for them. You'll find that system by trial and error. Constantly being open to trying knew things, and keeping logs of what you've learned are key.

Here's a humorous piece of advice, and don't bother asking for anecdotes because I won't answer. When your done getting the fish that was rapped around your lower unit, and your back in the boat and go to run forward to put your motor back down so you can steer again, don't forget to untie the safety line from yourself! For a mental picture of what this looks like, think about Wily E. Coyote from the old Bugs Bunny show.