Is it legal to sell your Fishing marks?
northwestern
2010-04-11 04:33:53
Does anyone know if it is legal to do this? This person is no longer Fishing and this made almost 70,000.00 trolling last season. Could be good for someone just starting out. Please let me know if anyone has any information. Thank you.
northwestern
2010-04-11 04:42:03
I have marks from the past 30 years and many new marks from the past five all on Nobeltec this person is no longer fishing and made almost 70,000. last season you could probably make more as he was not a dedicated fisherman. I just didn't know if this was legal or not. I'm not looking to get in trouble here I just though if this is possible then it could help out someone (and be a good investment) who is just starting out or looking for new places to fish.
My first response to this post is complete and total disgust for whoever this is who is trying to sell their drags. I can't even believe this is even being considered by someone. They must not be a fisherman. I just helped an 87 year old ex+schooner man and lifelong longliner and troller haul his boat out and did some recorking and cementing and painting and had a few days of incredible sea yarns and fishing tales. These are different worlds....
Salty
2010-04-11 16:24:37
NW,
I am sure it would be legal to sell your private marks, but once you sold them once the new owner could distribute them as he saw fit unless you encumbered them somehow.
It is the information age, knowledge is more important and salable than almost anything else.
northwestern
2010-04-11 16:39:13
I am just someone who is longer fishing and has no use for them. This could help someone out who needs them. Who needs the money or is just starting out commercial fishing on his or her own I'm not trying to sell the marks to everyone just one person. I really don't think there is anything wrong with that. This is a business after all. And they are good marks, you act like I have some kind of scam going here. I no longer have a need for these, someone else may feel differently.
northwestern
2010-04-11 16:45:03
Salty,
Thank you I will look further into it. I wish to sell it only to a single person who needs it, and yes they are my private marks. I hope to only help someone who needs it..... and I put a lot of time, money, sweat and sacrifice into this business.
No, this is not a joke TIM, my own private marks, it not like I'm trying to sell yours, then I could see you taking it so personally.
Of course you have the right to try to sell out those fishing holes. I guess this is a wake-up for me that the business being conducted via this web forum is begining to take a turn down a road I am not interested in. I am going to reserve my "forum" for the shipyard and the docks. Good luck selling those fishing holes. I hope you get a lot of money. I am now signing off for good from this website. Thanks for the nudge....
Salty
2010-04-12 02:16:19
NW,
Boy did you raise Tim's hackles. I guess we don't have to worry about him anymore.
For some reason I really don't see it the same way he does. If you have a marketable item that you have invested a great deal in that you want to sell and someone is willing to pay your for it then I don't see the problem. And since you are selling them to one person at a time it is not like you are sharing your drags and marks with the fleet. I can see how this information would be worth purchasing to a guy changing areas or a person new to the troll fishery.
I would recommend selling them quickly as marks related to pinnacles and routes for drags down trenches or along edges are rapidly becoming obsolete as we build our own 3D images of the bottom and aquire data from NOAA.
I have actually seen fish & game manuscripts that detail troll and sport drags all over SE Alaska. I can't imagine anyone thinks this stuff is secret.
SilverT
2010-04-12 06:08:33
NW,
I agree, your marks are worth something and you have every right to sell them or pass them on to someone who needs them.
I have been thinking about this kind of thing since I was eight years old, watching the trolling industry die in front of me as I grow older. What absolutely baffled me as a kid was why trollers didn't help each other more. What made me sick was seeing some of the most fantastic fishermen retire, not tell anyone the information they had gleaned over the years and then die, taking it all to the grave. What a tragic disservice to the future of the trolling industry.
I still can't fathom the highly secretive nature of the troller. Largely ignoring the newcomer or in some cases even taking a hostile position toward them when we need fresh enthusiastic blood to preserve the industry seems to be the best way to send trolling to the watery grave it's in down south. I see the posts about not catching our allocation. How about seeking out a newbie, taking them under your wing, show 'em some gear and tell them to follow you out to the drag in the morning? To the Tims out there (I know there is no way you're reading this, Tim), there's another reason for you to sign off :o Yep, I said it. I've been thinking it since I was eight and it really feels good to get it off my chest.
Making it a "crime" to pass on information to new trollers is as destructive to the trolling industry as anything I can imagine. Really? You don't want them to make it? You have other gear groups interested in taking your fish. You have sportsfishermen bent on your destruction. You have a pattern of destruction down south and still many won't cooperate and take an interest in the general success of the fleet. Blows my mind!
Many, many thanks to the fellows who helped me last year especially on this forum. I figure about 30% the income I made came from paying attention to what some of the few generous folks posted on here for the newbies. 20% came from what I learned from dad and 20% came from someone I consider to be a great friend who was willing to take a map out and draw with a pencil every possible place they could think of that I might find a salmon. Then they took me to the spots a few times. That leaves about 30% and my sons & wife get the credit for that.
Good on you NW for not letting your marks sit unused and thinking of passing them on. I wish every ritiring troller would think along similar lines and act on it. My kids children might actually be able to troll if this keeps up.
Salty
2010-04-12 15:16:11
SilverT,
Wow, you just encapsulated one of my beliefs better than I could have. My father before me, myself, and I hope my sons after me share your belief about sharing and helping. People have helped me so much more than any little bit I have to help others that I could spend the rest of my life sharing what little I know and still not make up the debt.
Just this winter a legendary highliner in Sitka, who is not a close friend of mine, spent time explaining how to use bow poles and giving me tips on rigging them that have proved invaluable. The legendary Chuck Martin himself came over to my boat in 1982 and spent a couple of hours giving me tips that really made a difference. I still use the spoon and hook he recommended.
But here is the tip that helped me the most from Chuck. We had been fishing in the same area for a week or so. In those days I was trying to be the first out and the last in while single handling it. Chuck advised me that an important thing to remember was that we got paid in the fishing business for what we delivered, not for how hard we tried.
The way I have personalized this advice over the years has benefited me greatly. I make sure I get enough sleep so my decision making is better than when I am sleep deprived (which adds to both productivity and safety) and as best I can to be patient to take what the season, the run, the tide, is delivering.
Thanks again SilverT for your inspiring comments. Perhaps we should start a thread on "Tips on trolling that have paid off."
JYDPDX
2010-04-12 18:56:04
While I see Tims point of view (albeit not boycotting forum communication), I agree wholeheartedly with SilverT. I have learned more from generous freinds and relatives than I ever could have figured out by trail and error.
I don't know very many tricks of the trade but I'd love to pass along anything that could help someone out. I believe the reason this forum was created was with the intention of having a meathod for new entrants to obtain information about the industry.
One tip I I got last year was to keep paper plates in the pit. When somethng goes over (ie. a gaff, etc) throw out a few plates. They make things so much easier to spot and retrieve.
ashadu
2010-04-13 01:44:02
I think that the point of helping someone out who is getting started, is not to personaly profit monitarily from that exchange. the point is to "pay it forward" to someone who is dedicated,working hard, and probably cant stand another head to brick wall collision. Some people work that way and some dont. The poor individuals who cant see the value of a gesture of compassion have probably just never recieved one. I hope that Tim returns to this forum as I see it primarily dedicated to a spirit of community sharing and advancement. thanks ashadu, perhaps "This person no longer fishing " would like to donate his marks to Jon to auction off to support this site.
Salty
2010-04-13 04:50:39
I like the idea of using plates as marks and guess it is a variation on the title of the thread. I have a story about that is part of the troller lore of old.
So this troller is breaking in a green deckhand on the first trip of the year and of course they are short of almost everything including gaff hooks especially after the green deckhand has lost several. So they are down to two gaffs and the skipper is in the wheel house while the deckhand is struggling with a big king and manages to lose his gaff.
The skipper says "We have to retrieve that gaff, quick throw something over I can see to mark it."
Not having prepared with white paper plates or an old purex jug or the sharp eyed deckhand noticed a nice red colored item and quickly threw it over.
"Don't worry, I just marked it," he yells to the skipper.
"Great, what should I be looking for?"
"Your gaff!"
SilverT
2010-04-13 05:42:31
Salty, it's really great to know you have passed it on to your family and thanks for explaining that tip you received about time vs. quality. The first month and a half fishing, I was nearly a dead man walking. It took a while to realize I made more money getting to bed earlier. Your beliefs shine fairly brightly as do those of a few others and I hope you continue to inspire in the same way that you already have. Thanks for all the tips. Just read your last story too. That was great!
Jim Moore knew I needed some rare trolling parts last year and went out of his way to make sure I received them out of his own personal stash. I might add, that he could have charged me quite a bit, but instead, gave them to me as a gift. If I remember correctly, I had talked with him one time on the dock prior to that encounter. The man's character and manner is something to model after and I came away amazed by the whole thing. It's no wonder he does so well.
Thanks JYDPDX for the comments. I too was amazed at how quickly a gaff disappeared in a small chop. I wouldn't have had another one when I lost it, except a poster in this forum advised buying three of everything of that nature and I took their advice.
Ashadu, the head to brick wall thing cracked me up. And I hope Tim returns as well, even if he maintains his position. Not everyone is going to see things the same way. Also, thanks for all the fish you pushed my way last year.
salmon4u
2010-04-14 05:59:55
One of the things I've loved about trolling through the years is the sense on community. While we do love the competition of catching the most fish, it's also been great to get to know so many honest and helpfull people. The sea is hard enough on us all.
Chuck Martin was mentioned, I met him also when I first started fishing in Washington. His troller was the nicest I'd ever seen. He came up and started shooting the breeze with me. I'd actually been pretty lucky for a new troller and had some good trips on Kings. Suddenly alot of "highliners" got off their boats to come over and join our conversation... One fellow asked Chuck... "So,,, what was your best king season?" He said that it was probably 1966, he made three back to back 500 king trips on the Fairweather Grounds, the fish on the East Bank averaged 18lbs each and the fish on the West Bank averaged 22lbs. He said he paid for his boat that season.... Wish we could see that again huh?
SilverT
2010-04-15 05:16:57
Salmon4u,
Thanks for the story. As unreal as it sounds, I think it's possible.
Angie
2010-04-15 15:19:58
One time Jon and I had two gaffs left. Jon must have had a peanut butter sandwich for lunch because the second to last gaff just slipped from his fingers whilst trying to nail a king. And then he yanks my gaff out of my hands and throws it into the sea. Apparently, he was trying to gaff the gaff. Sometimes our bodies do strange and it's pretty funny. I was talking on our only cell phone on deck, I finished the call and threw the phone overboard. Funny.
mswkickdrum
2010-04-16 20:20:45
Northwestern,
I sent you a PM about the marks.
MSW
salmon4u
2010-04-17 05:02:32
haaa,, sorry about the cell phone.. that's funny... One time I was so tired I threw the salmon guts into the tote and threw the fish over... LOL... even worse than throwing out a spoon not attached to a leader.. : )
SilverT
2010-04-17 18:25:03
I laughed when I read the stories. I did the same thing with a silver this year. Angie, You've got me beat with the cell phone. It reminded me of the first time I threw dad's gear overboard without it being attached to the main. Things were pretty tight for us and I didn't say a word. I can still see that flasher slowly waving back and forth as it sunk out of sight. I thought when I was an adult it would be different, but I think I toss stuff more often now. Thanks for sharing.
frozenatsea
2010-05-13 06:36:07
Wow, you just encapsulated one of my beliefs better than I could have. My father before me, myself, and I hope my sons after me share your belief about sharing and helping. People have helped me so much more than any little bit I have to help others that I could spend the rest of my life sharing what little I know and still not make up the debt.
Just this winter a legendary highliner in Sitka, who is not a close friend of mine, spent time explaining how to use bow poles and giving me tips on rigging them that have proved invaluable. The legendary Chuck Martin himself came over to my boat in 1982 and spent a couple of hours giving me tips that really made a difference. I still use the spoon and hook he recommended.
But here is the tip that helped me the most from Chuck. We had been fishing in the same area for a week or so. In those days I was trying to be the first out and the last in while single handling it. Chuck advised me that an important thing to remember was that we got paid in the fishing business for what we delivered, not for how hard we tried.
The way I have personalized this advice over the years has benefited me greatly. I make sure I get enough sleep so my decision making is better than when I am sleep deprived (which adds to both productivity and safety) and as best I can to be patient to take what the season, the run, the tide, is delivering.
Thanks again SilverT for your inspiring comments. Perhaps we should start a thread on "Tips on trolling that have paid off."
We need to catch all the fish that we can this summer to increase our allocation numbers. If you are really serious about increasing the trollers allocation numbers Salty, you and your chum fishing friends should post on here the gear that you use. Why keep secrets when we are all in the same boat as far as increasing our allocation numbers go? A friend of mine just recently told me that he was not going to keep secrets any more that he had about his longlining. He told me several things that he would never have told me in the past. Pretty soon, it seemed like he was in a confession booth.
Salty
2010-05-14 01:52:43
There are no secrets left in chum trolling. I have already revealed all I know.
Basically troll between 1.2 and 1.6 knots over water, run straight flashers, either bare hooks or your favorite flavor of bug (I used several flavors last year) and do your best to find some fish away from the fleet.
The big lesson in chum trolling is that it is a totally different troll fishery than scratching kings or chasing the coho bite. Production is based way more on your ability to manage and maintain your production over time than it is on finding the "bite".
We had a great meeting with John Scoblic of Trident Seafoods. Pretty sobering discussion of his assessment of the Neets Bay chum troll management plan which is closed with some parts of the bay open depending on the effort and cpue plan this year as opposed to an open till done plan last year. I counted nearly 40 trollers in attendance. Lots of disappointed trollers.
It is posted on the SSRAA webpage and in their latest newsletter.
SilverT
2010-05-14 06:34:36
Frozenatsea,
The longliner sounds like a good friend to have and a rare one and I'll bet he will feel pretty good in his old age when he's forgotten many of the details, but knows he passed them on to friends who can use them. I think Salty is giving one of the biggest "secrets" of chum fishing. Yes, I confess, I followed him and others around. I had my mouth hanging open watching some of them handle their gear and fish. There is no way I could produce like they did, even if my lines were completely loaded every time I put them out, simply because of the way my boat is set up. There were a few other things that would have made a big difference for me that I didn't realize until the season was about over. I'll share them when I get a chance, but they may be in the form of "things not to do", as I feel very confident speaking to that end.
You had me thinking today regarding the ethics of information sharing and unless someone convinces me otherwise, I'll be telling my family that if they discover it, it's theirs to share. If someone tells them about it freely, it's theirs to share. If they hear it openly shared on the docks, it's theirs to share. If they see it hanging on the back of a troller, it's theirs to share. If they see it through their infrared image stabilizing 25x Hubble Jr. binoculars, it's ... I'm still wrestling with that one. But, if someone tells them about it and asks them not to share it, I'll be telling them they ought to keep it to themselves, particularly if they gave their word that they would.
Bill M
2010-05-14 10:30:01
Everything about trolling baffles me..... I am against a wall in finding a simple HT permit. The state wants me to take a week to come up to Juneau so I can get a "state loan. All the old guys that have refused to sell and now their kids are just letting the permits rot so they may have a chance at buy back is just beyond me.
I've got a great new boat this year but it looks like I'll have to set my sights at the 2011 or 2k12 season because I don't just have ten grand laying around. I work for a living.
yak2you2
2010-05-14 11:46:06
The thing about secrets and tricks is,,,everybody was looking for one when they discovered them. There are some professions that you can truly become an expert at, but trolling isn't one of them. You constantly gain experience at it, but you can never know it all. Just about the time you think you do, you realize that you know nothing. You may have gotten lucky and had it figure out for a while, but about that time something changes. Water temperature, water color, what depth their at, what their feeding on, the current, the tide, etc. Sooner or later, every troller has those days when everybody but him is catching.
I think back to when I first started. I fished most of a coho season with my flashers on backwards, thats right, fat end forward, and I had about a 16" tail leader to my hootchies. I seem to remember catching plenty of fish though. Granted cohos are pretty forgiving, but I've often wondered if there wasn't more to it than that. Maybe I was on to something, and I didn't even now it. I haven't ever experimented to find out, mostly because I'm to afraid someone might see me dragging my flashers backwards and laugh at me. One of the biggest kings I ever landed came off of a 2 inch long hootchie I was playing around with one day. Drug that hootchie around until it practically fell off of the hook, and never caught another thing with it.
I've heard of all kinds of things like that. Guys who put their hooks on backwards, troll at stupid fast or slow speeds, use foot long leaders on their spoons, etc. I can't tell you how many times the ugliest hook in the box wound up being the one they wanted. You find a lure that works really good for a season, the odds are even they won't touch it next year. I've caught fish in one school going a certain speed, then later that same day found another school that wouldn't take anything unless I was going a full knot faster.
The best two tips there is IMHO; 1)There is no magic lure that always catches. Things change, keep your mind free to change when it happens. If their not into what your serving, you better be prepared to try out something else. 2) Crazy ideas can turn into best kept secrets, don't be afraid to go off of the beaten path.
Salty
2010-05-14 14:59:35
Great posts. Thank you for the kind comments.
The fact is there is both lots of sharing and some closely guarded secrets in this trolling business.
I have done my share of sharing and believe it or not I am quite good at keeping secrets when asked or it is otherwise appropriate.
Also the art of the timely deception or just a bit of the truth can be used both for humor and a bit of payback.
Tom Jacobsen really got me onetime with a bit of deception with humor intended.
I was fishing about 15 miles off of Whale Bay for coho in my old wood boat the Sudan. I had been busy tacking off shore and working the gear and handling the coho as I was fishing solo as I did a lot in those days. I took a break and went to the cabin and looked around. I had managed to drag out of the "fleet" and didn't see anyone around. I noticed a dark wind line and clouds to the South off of Omaney. I had just put a new VHF in and had not figured out how to access the weather channel yet so I call Jacobsen who I had seen on the drag earlier in the day.
I asked him if he had heard a recent weather report.
He said, "Oh, yeah, in fact I can play it back for you if you want."
I said, "Sure, go ahead."
Tom played this tape of
Before he ended the transmission I was in the pit hauling my gear and tacking for Biorka Channel. After I got the gear aboard and was charging along with my tail between my legs in the building 5 knots of wind I got the new VHF manual out and started reading how to use the controls and access the weather channels. After an hour or so of charging I noticed that I was arriving in the coho fleet. I also figured out how to access the weather report which was for "light and variable winds".
I threw in the gear and was on the "bite".
I have never been sure whether I should whack Tom or thank him.
Carol W
2010-05-14 15:18:39
Knowing Tom and knowing you Eric I can believe this totally.